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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    I'm suggesting a clear dividing line. If you are a citizen, you are entitled to a trial. If you are a civilian, you should be given one. if you are involved in a declared enemy organisation, you are not. You, on the other hand, seem to have decided that everyone is entitled to a trial, even when they're very heinous, except when you personally consider that they're a little bit too heinous.

    Frankly this is getting ridiculous, so I'm going to declare myself done here. Enjoy having the last word.
    Even Saddam got a trial.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    We will see what comes of Chilcote when it is eventually published, but Iraq casts a hideous shadow over his tenure.



    Maggie successfully instilled the 'it's alright for me Jack' mindset in a decade. The public's perception of immigration and benefits is miles off from reality. You know that, but have no desire to make people think 'ah, maybe it isn't quite like I thought'.
    It doesn't erase the good things he acheived though and isn't relevant to what I was saying at all.

    No - the Labour Party allowed her too. The unions striking against a labour government coupled with the hard left of the party are what spawned and sustained Thatcher, not public perceptions. She also tried to get people to take climate change seriously - wasn't so successful there was she? See the thing is public perceptions were already turning more towards individualism, she just have it a hard shove. As I've said before, unlike her, Jeremy is shoving against the tide just wit it.

    I do - just not through the media of labour because no one will listen and it will cost them the election.
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Leaving the EU won't solve all the UK's problems, we are screwed. In fact I have never seen a country more screwed.

    But it will allow us to regain our sovereignty, which is no small thing. Ask Greece.

    Anyway, we might as well get out BEFORE the whole rotten, undemocratic, edifice collapses under the weight of this insoluble migrant crisis.

    You accuse Kippers of being idealists over leaving Europe. That is nonsense. It is the Europhiles who are the hopeless idealists. Believing that this supra national organisation can arise from the ashes of world war two, with all national interests and differences subsumed under a common European identity. Conflict and war banished forever.

    Since the fall of the Roman Empire Europe has been a snake pit of competing, warring tribes, cultures and then countries. It still is, as we can see before our very eyes...

    You don't care about the environment at all do you?
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    I may be an idealistic fool but you don't half make some impressive leaps in logic. My point is that the UK's role in this is significant in contributing to the factors which have caused this mass exodus.

    Yes Germany has dropped the cake on the floor and is busy tidying it up, but the UK burnt it in the first place.
    Of all the countries who have burnt cakes since it unified in 1871 (actually in order to be able to unify too), Germany has burnt the least. I can't think of a country that has done less harm in the world.

    There's a reason Germany is (stupidly) taking all those immigrants. Guilt.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    You don't care about the environment at all do you?
    We are going to hear some guff in the Referendum debate, I can't wait.

    Yes yes, don't tell me, if we leave the EU all the icebergs will continue to melt and the polar bears will die, I know.
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    We are going to hear some guff in the Referendum debate, I can't wait.

    Yes yes, don't tell me, if we leave the EU all the icebergs will continue to melt and the polar bears will die, I know.
    No, but we will noenic the **** out of our crops, tear up all the wildflowers and most likely kill all the bees in the process. On top of that fishing quotas would rocket, leaving us with pretty much non existent fishing stocks.

    Also under a UKIP led government there would be no renewables and TB rates would go through the roof in cattle.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    No, but we will noenic the **** out of our crops, tear up all the wildflowers and most likely kill all the bees in the process. On top of that fishing quotas would rocket, leaving us with pretty much non existent fishing stocks.

    Also under a UKIP led government there would be no renewables and TB rates would go through the roof in cattle.
    I don't want to argue about the bees, whom I am most fond of, and hope some solution can be found for, pesticides wise. That is a tragedy, and eminently soluble (in fact it would be far easier to solve) outside Europe.

    But you can't get away with arguing the EU has prevented the depletion of the oceans around us. The Common Fisheries Policy has allowed every fishing fleet in Europe to suck up the fish in great industrial trawlers a few miles from our coast! Our fishing fleet has been decimated.

    If we had never joined the EU we could have prevented them from entering our territorial waters (as Iceland did during the "Cod War") kept the fish stocks sustainable AND kept a domestic fishing fleet.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    This may come as a surprise to you, but I actually think a lot of the qualms people have with the EU are justified. It is a bloated bureaucracy that attempts to create economic union without political union although the perks of membership are grossly understated. What concerns me far more are UKIP's plans domestically rather than internationally. The problem I have with it is that they have some well-founded concerns on some matters but then take absurd far right positions on other things like scrapping anti-discrimination laws in employment.
    I don't agree with some UKIP polices either. I believe in gay marriage, rights for minorities, and so do many Kippers.

    Actually UKIP (and especially Farage) needs to step back now as it (he) is hugely divisive. In many ways UKIP has done its job in getting the referendum in the first place. You can vote to leave if you think that is in our nation's interest whilst hating both UKIP and Farage.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Ah the council elections, not the actual membership. I know it is only one CLP but mine has reported a lot of old members coming back and the constituency has never been Labour. Corbyn has only been in the job less than a month and there is also Dugdale to factor in. Give him time.
    How much time? Poll in the Scotsman today show a drop in Labour support post Corbyn...

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...land-1-3911187

    Looks like the Scots don't like a pacifist deficit denier any more than the English.

    Who'd have thought?
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    I don't want to argue about the bees, whom I am most fond of, and hope some solution can be found for, pesticides wise. That is a tragedy, and eminently soluble (in fact it would be far easier to solve) outside Europe.

    But you can't get away with arguing the EU has prevented the depletion of the oceans around us. The Common Fisheries Policy has allowed every fishing fleet in Europe to suck up the fish in great industrial trawlers a few miles from our coast! Our fishing fleet has been decimated.

    If we had never joined the EU we could have prevented them from entering our territorial waters (as Iceland did during the "Cod War") kept the fish stocks sustainable AND kept a domestic fishing fleet.
    Not as much as having no quotas - which I have seen hoop argue for in a meeting about the environments, alongside wiping out bashers and lifting anybresyrictions on pesticide use.

    The eu creates pretty much all of our laws on environmental protection, meanwhile the likes of ukip and the conservatives fight against them.
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    (Original post by redferry)

    The eu creates pretty much all of our laws on environmental protection
    That's the post propter hoc fallacy.

    We don't need the EU to give us laws on environmental protection, we can pass them ourselves, as a sovereign nation.

    Answer me this: Where is the European demos?
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    That's the post propter hoc fallacy.

    We don't need the EU to give us laws on environmental protection, we can pass them ourselves, as a sovereign nation.

    Answer me this: Where is the European demos?
    Except without fail our government fights AGAiNST them so no, without Europe we wouldn't have these environmental protections because there is no political will to impose them.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Except without fail our government fights AGAiNST them so no, without Europe we wouldn't have these environmental protections because there is no political will to impose them.
    That doesn't follow at all. A future parliament, indeed this parliament could well enact all of these environmental protections.

    That is just a minor detail, however. It isn't the major issue of principle.

    I asked you for the location of the European demos, and you (sensibly) didn't provide a response.

    So I'll reply in your stead. There isn't one. It doesn't exist.

    That is the fatal flaw of the European Union. It as no democratic legitimacy whatsoever. The European Commission, which wields immense power even boasts of this:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-official.html

    We saw the consequences of this in Greece earlier this year when the democratic will of that people at a referendum was contemptuously ignored by Brussels and the Heads of Government.. And we are going to see it in spades as this economic migrant crisis (which has barely started) unfolds.
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    How much time? Poll in the Scotsman today show a drop in Labour support post Corbyn...

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...land-1-3911187

    Looks like the Scots don't like a pacifist deficit denier any more than the English.

    Who'd have thought?
    'Tom Costley, Head of TNS Scotland said: “People are still getting to know the new Labour leaders and what they stand for, so it’s not surprising there has been little immediate impact on voting intentions.'

    Oh dear.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    'Tom Costley, Head of TNS Scotland said: “People are still getting to know the new Labour leaders and what they stand for, so it’s not surprising there has been little immediate impact on voting intentions.'

    Oh dear.
    Oh dear indeed.

    I don't know much about Scottish politics I'll admit, but it seems to my inexpert eye that Corbyn's problem north of the border is that he is so English.

    I reckon Jesus Christ himself wouldn't get many votes up with you if he had an English accent...
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Oh dear indeed.

    I don't know much about Scottish politics I'll admit, but it seems to my inexpert eye that Corbyn's problem north of the border is that he is so English.

    I reckon Jesus Christ himself wouldn't get many votes up with you if he had an English accent...
    You're right, you don't. Ask people why they switched from Labour up here and you will get a mix of 'They stood with the Tories in the referendum', 'They stood with the Tories on austerity', or basically anything. People put their trust in Labour to do things differently but were seen to side with a party that abandoned Scotland in the late 80s/early 90s.
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    whats corbyn upto these days? whys he not going to say hi to Elizabeth?
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    You're right, you don't. Ask people why they switched from Labour up here and you will get a mix of 'They stood with the Tories in the referendum', 'They stood with the Tories on austerity', or basically anything. People put their trust in Labour to do things differently but were seen to side with a party that abandoned Scotland in the late 80s/early 90s.
    Well, thanks, as the world expert (who seriously thinks Corbyn will make inroads into Labour's death spiral in Scotland!), for putting me right. :-)
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Well, thanks, as the world expert (who seriously thinks Corbyn will make inroads into Labour's death spiral in Scotland!), for putting me right. :-)
    Never claimed to be a world expert on Scotland as I'm not a Scot, but I do know a bit more about events here as someone who has lived here for the best part of a decade than someone who hasn't and admittedly knows very little.

    Corbyn and Dugdale have years and years of damage to fix and to do that they have to slowly win back trust and show that the SNP's flagship policy of independence would be a grave mistake. After all, as a member of UKIP, I would imagine the integrity of the union is something you value as well.
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    (Original post by interact)
    whats corbyn upto these days? whys he not going to say hi to Elizabeth?
    Would Elizabeth say hi to him?
 
 
 
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