The Commons Bar Mk IX - MHoC Chat Thread Watch

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Rakas21
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#5221
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#5221
(Original post by Aph)
Attack the people you want to vote for you... Good tactics :rolleyes:
I tend to agree but as Tories we are currently having to deal with people who are much less nice than you. Only this morning i've been declared selfish, thick and morally inferior... the internet can be a hard place.

Once things calm down i imagine everybody will go back to normal.
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thehistorybore
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#5222
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
To be fair, that's a pretty stupid assumption to make given that it's a student forum full of lefties that haven't yet realised the error of their ways.

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I'd say that the chance of a replication of RL is pretty much negligible. Judging by the general reaction to election results across TSR, I imagine the leftist parties will all do relatively well.
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Jammy Duel
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#5223
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#5223
(Original post by thehistorybore)
I'd say that the chance of a replication of RL is pretty much negligible. Judging by the general reaction to election results across TSR, I imagine the leftist parties will all do relatively well.
All you had to do is before hand look at how TSR was polling. I do wish the people who don't like the result will just calm down and stop raving about how it was in some way rigged, or how it was the fault of the Scottish, or that everybody was stupid, and how because their political assignation didn't win we need a proportional system, even though that would still have put Cameron in no. 10
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Aph
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#5224
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#5224
(Original post by Rakas21)
I tend to agree but as Tories we are currently having to deal with people who are much less nice than you. Only this morning i've been declared selfish, thick and morally inferior... the internet can be a hard place.

Once things calm down i imagine everybody will go back to normal.
Well I do understand... I mean I don't expect there to be public services for the next GE. On election night I was thinking about moving to Scotland/Sweden for uni just to escape the apocalypse coming and if Scotland get fiscal autonomy it will shoot to the top of my list....
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Rakas21
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#5225
(Original post by Aph)
Well I do understand... I mean I don't expect there to be public services for the next GE. On election night I was thinking about moving to Scotland/Sweden for uni just to escape the apocalypse coming and if Scotland get fiscal autonomy it will shoot to the top of my list....
I don't have a problem with the left thinking like that in terms of policy.. but many people are proving themselves inferior via personal attacks.
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thehistorybore
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
All you had to do is before hand look at how TSR was polling. I do wish the people who don't like the result will just calm down and stop raving about how it was in some way rigged, or how it was the fault of the Scottish, or that everybody was stupid, and how because their political assignation didn't win we need a proportional system, even though that would still have put Cameron in no. 10
Well exactly. But I get the impression that the results RL will have an impact on Tory votes here. It's human nature to be blinkered and bigoted though; mostly people think that because they have chosen a particular party on 'their merits' that everyone who doesn't vote for them is wrong. PR wouldn't be effective here anyway; it would destroy the whole system of municipalities and constituencies that we have always had. PR would see the death of the idea of a 'local MP'.
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PetrosAC
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(Original post by thehistorybore)
Well exactly. But I get the impression that the results RL will have an impact on Tory votes here. It's human nature to be blinkered and bigoted though; mostly people think that because they have chosen a particular party on 'their merits' that everyone who doesn't vote for them is wrong. PR wouldn't be effective here anyway; it would destroy the whole system of municipalities and constituencies that we have always had. PR would see the death of the idea of a 'local MP'.
STV would work imo

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barnetlad
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(Original post by PetrosAC)
STV would work imo

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I would agree, as then you are more likely to have someone who represents your political choice, and I think that you would have more women MPs, and a wider range of ages and backgrounds. You can also choose within a party.
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thehistorybore
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(Original post by PetrosAC)
STV would work imo

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That's true, in fact some MPs (W. Bagehot and J.S. Mill) campaigned for it in the 1860's; STV has historically been the alternative in Britain. In fact there was a big push for it across the Empire in the late 1800's. It's definitely a viable alternative, but some politicians/ignoramuses on TSR seem to be pushing for PR, which just wouldn't work with out style of politics.
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Aph
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#5230
(Original post by PetrosAC)
STV would work imo

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I'd prefer a weighted vote as opposed to STV.
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username1524603
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
All you had to do is before hand look at how TSR was polling. I do wish the people who don't like the result will just calm down and stop raving about how it was in some way rigged, or how it was the fault of the Scottish, or that everybody was stupid, and how because their political assignation didn't win we need a proportional system, even though that would still have put Cameron in no. 10
I have long been a proponent of PR as I think having 3 million votes for one MP for one party but 34,000 for one MP for another party is unfair. I do, however, wish people would stop using the campaign for PR as a way to vent their anger over their favoured parties not being chosen. I doubt these people would be calling for PR if Labour were in the position the Conservatives are in.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by thehistorybore)
Well exactly. But I get the impression that the results RL will have an impact on Tory votes here. It's human nature to be blinkered and bigoted though; mostly people think that because they have chosen a particular party on 'their merits' that everyone who doesn't vote for them is wrong. PR wouldn't be effective here anyway; it would destroy the whole system of municipalities and constituencies that we have always had. PR would see the death of the idea of a 'local MP'.
It would be intersting to see what effect some form of even approximate PR would have. Occasionally the pollsters will have the whole "if they could win would you..." things, and on here I suspect that a lot of the strength for the likes of the greens is people voting for what they think is right rather than what they think is sensible, but that's still not too informative, particularly since it normally only looks at a single party. It's all well and good to say that if we had a PR system Cameron would still be in no. 10, but that assumes that people would be voting in the same way.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
I have long been a proponent of PR as I think having 3 million votes for one MP for one party but 34,000 for one MP for another party is unfair. I do, however, wish people would stop using the campaign for PR as a way to vent their anger over their favoured parties not being chosen. I doubt these people would be calling for PR if Labour were in the position the Conservatives are in.
Exactly. I do wonder how the less mature of the Conservative vote would be reacting, who they would be blaming. I doubt many of them would be calling for PR, but there will be something that some of them will harp on about, probably Labour rigging counts or something.
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Tanqueray91
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
All you had to do is before hand look at how TSR was polling. I do wish the people who don't like the result will just calm down and stop raving about how it was in some way rigged, or how it was the fault of the Scottish, or that everybody was stupid, and how because their political assignation didn't win we need a proportional system, even though that would still have put Cameron in no. 10
Yeh, they're just sour about the results...

The PEOPLE of THIS COUNTRY voted, which brought about the votes that came... The problem with talking about it on TSR, is that as the poll here showed, people are heavily Labour... however, in reality, the way it turned out, people voted Tory... In fact, more people voted Tory than any other party, and so the people definitely chose who is now in government... Like you, I don't understand why people are blaming everything except the fact that maybe people preferred the Tories to other parties...
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PetrosAC
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#5235
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(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
I have long been a proponent of PR as I think having 3 million votes for one MP for one party but 34,000 for one MP for another party is unfair. I do, however, wish people would stop using the campaign for PR as a way to vent their anger over their favoured parties not being chosen. I doubt these people would be calling for PR if Labour were in the position the Conservatives are in.
I completely agree

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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by mobbsy91)
Yeh, they're just sour about the results...

The PEOPLE of THIS COUNTRY voted, which brought about the votes that came... The problem with talking about it on TSR, is that as the poll here showed, people are heavily Labour... however, in reality, the way it turned out, people voted Tory... In fact, more people voted Tory than any other party, and so the people definitely chose who is now in government... Like you, I don't understand why people are blaming everything except the fact that maybe people preferred the Tories to other parties...
Nononononno, don't say that the Tories got the most votes, even though you explicitly stated that they got more than any other party they will shout about how there were more non-voters, even though that is totally irrelevant as they chose not to exercise their right to vote.

Just read something interesting that would indicate that, for example bar the case in Scotland, PR wouldn't make much difference. In places where you either have two bodies, one elected under PR and one under FPTP, e.g. Scotland and Wales, or places where parts of the country FPTP and others PR, e.g. Germany, you don't actually see much of a difference between the two. I.e., it wouldn't be unfair to say that under PR the left-right balance would be about the same. Of course, the other thing you would get is greater scrutiny for some parties, namely the Greens, who have only avoided scrutiny because they're no hopers. Under PR they would have, what, about 30 seats? They would come under much greater scrutiny then and either have to abandon their more radical ideas or lose votes, we've already seen this when coming under only slight scrutiny.
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thehistorybore
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
It would be intersting to see what effect some form of even approximate PR would have. Occasionally the pollsters will have the whole "if they could win would you..." things, and on here I suspect that a lot of the strength for the likes of the greens is people voting for what they think is right rather than what they think is sensible, but that's still not too informative, particularly since it normally only looks at a single party. It's all well and good to say that if we had a PR system Cameron would still be in no. 10, but that assumes that people would be voting in the same way.
Yes I suppose. The whole idea of the Greens 'doing what is right' is pretty irrelevant to politics in my mind. I personally regard the government's first duty to be balancing the ledgers, and morality shouldn't come into question with that. Although I am aware that this is quite an extreme view that would be unpopular with many members of TSR. The problem with PR is that you end up with endless coalitions and situations where opposition parties can vote against the government unconstitutionally (i.e budgets or criminal law amendments) and you end up with a crisis of power, and more general elections. PR is more democratic, as it is more representative, but it rarely leads to efficient government (see Weimar Republic from about 1929 onwards).
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by thehistorybore)
Yes I suppose. The whole idea of the Greens 'doing what is right' is pretty irrelevant to politics in my mind. I personally regard the government's first duty to be balancing the ledgers, and morality shouldn't come into question with that. Although I am aware that this is quite an extreme view that would be unpopular with many members of TSR. The problem with PR is that you end up with endless coalitions and situations where opposition parties can vote against the government unconstitutionally (i.e budgets or criminal law amendments) and you end up with a crisis of power, and more general elections. PR is more democratic, as it is more representative, but it rarely leads to efficient government (see Weimar Republic from about 1929 onwards).
Coalitions aren't always a bad thing, it introduces moderation and compromise and reduces the number of ideologically fueled bills passing into law, as we will see over the next year or two, all those things that the Tories couldn't get done last time, either because of the lib dems, or because it was a coalition and thus the Lords could block manifesto pledges, which they traditionally won't for a majority, they will be doing quickly this time. Boundary changes and Eu referendum, for example.
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thehistorybore
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
Coalitions aren't always a bad thing, it introduces moderation and compromise and reduces the number of ideologically fueled bills passing into law, as we will see over the next year or two, all those things that the Tories couldn't get done last time, either because of the lib dems, or because it was a coalition and thus the Lords could block manifesto pledges, which they traditionally won't for a majority, they will be doing quickly this time. Boundary changes and Eu referendum, for example.
But they do detract from the efficiency of the system. In any case, MPs are less responsive to whipping than they used to be, so the party itself will tend to defeat their own bills if they're regarded to be nonsense/solely ideological. I think the Lords deserve their veto back but that's a discussion for another time...
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username1524603
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(Original post by thehistorybore)
Yes I suppose. The whole idea of the Greens 'doing what is right' is pretty irrelevant to politics in my mind. I personally regard the government's first duty to be balancing the ledgers, and morality shouldn't come into question with that. Although I am aware that this is quite an extreme view that would be unpopular with many members of TSR. The problem with PR is that you end up with endless coalitions and situations where opposition parties can vote against the government unconstitutionally (i.e budgets or criminal law amendments) and you end up with a crisis of power, and more general elections. PR is more democratic, as it is more representative, but it rarely leads to efficient government (see Weimar Republic from about 1929 onwards).
PR does not always lead to the balance of power crisis you describe as it is easy to write in to the new method's rules of conduct veto power for the largest party in a government. MPs for the largest party would have their votes weighted more to give the largest party dominance in passing budgets and criminal law amendments.
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