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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    Hold on here, because social democracy is centre left, and yet our political landscape is dominated by it.



    I just can't for the life of me see how the Tories are right wing. To paraphrase Peter Hitchens "they should call themselves the socialist workers party"
    The "centre" ground should be defined according to the population, it should exactly what it says on the tin. The global centre I would expect is to the left, the UK centre to the right of that, the US centre further still, the policies and ideas should be defined by that centre, instead, you are making declarations of where ideas are and then assigning the centre according to that.
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    (Original post by United1892)
    Peter Hitchens calling something left wing is not a good argument.
    To be fair, as an ex-Trot he probably is more entitled than most.

    (Original post by Aph)
    So is the army, but the left oppose the use of military force generally. So is MI5/6 & GCHQ but they are all right wing... Heck!! Even the queen fits the category but she is as right wing as they come.
    You're right, the Queen makes Donald Trump look like Karl Marx. Obviously forgetting that she really didn't like Thatcher and had Thatcher stop trading with S. Africa while there was apartheid and Mandela was in prison.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    Hold on here, because social democracy is centre left, and yet our political landscape is dominated by it.



    I just can't for the life of me see how the Tories are right wing. To paraphrase Peter Hitchens "they should call themselves the socialist workers party"
    They are not the party for the working man are you severely drunk?
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    To be fair, as an ex-Trot he probably is more entitled than most.



    You're right, the Queen makes Donald Trump look like Karl Marx. Obviously forgetting that she really didn't like Thatcher and had Thatcher stop trading with S. Africa while there was apartheid and Mandela was in prison.
    My point was the idea of monarchy is inherently right wing. Or do you support the monarchy?
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    The "centre" ground should be defined according to the population, it should exactly what it says on the tin. The global centre I would expect is to the left, the UK centre to the right of that, the US centre further still, the policies and ideas should be defined by that centre, instead, you are making declarations of where ideas are and then assigning the centre according to that.
    Either way, I still don't see how the Tories are right wing

    (Original post by United1892)
    James Milibanter just a question. If the tories are left wing now what were they under Harold Macmillan?
    I said before that the Tories of the 50s and 60s were more left than New Labour.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    A political party supporting a broadly left-wing institution for unknown reasons does not make that party left wing. To see where a party lies all of the policies of that party must be examined first, where a majority position on the polices can be determined. Privatisation is associated with the right, lower welfare is associated with the right, lower immigration is associated with the right, militaristic foreign policy is associated with the right, and lower corporation tax is associated with the right; the Conservative party's association with these ideas determine its centre-right position on the spectrum, its support for left-wing institutions only makes it less right, not left.
    Especially when the support of those institutions is to prevent electoral suicide. After all, we know that the Tories truly will not be in for a generation if they outright abolish the NHS, we also know that it would probably also come with a VoNC backed by half the backbenchers, if not a call from the public for the resignation of the government, and then Labour reinstating the NHS.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    I said before that the Tories of the 50s and 60s were more left than New Labour.
    That one I actually agree with.
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    (Original post by BigItch)
    They are not the party for the working man are you severely drunk?
    you say that but that was floated around during the election this year.

    (Original post by Aph)
    My point was the idea of monarchy is inherently right wing. Or do you support the monarchy?
    It's different as we have a constitutional monarchy and liberal democracy with social democrats dominating our political landscape.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    you say that but that was floated around during the election this year.



    It's different as we have a constitutional monarchy and liberal democracy with social democrats dominating our political landscape.
    No we don't, it's clearly the bankers!
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    To be fair, as an ex-Trot he probably is more entitled than most.
    Not really, he sees one similar policy and therefore decides there trots to.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    The point of 'some form of it' was admitting that the NHS isn't perfect.

    And it is in western society, even the USA has Obama care
    Whilst socialistic healthcare systems are common in Europe due to the post-War consensus the NHS isn't Obamacare (a measure proposed by relatively left-wing Democrats and opposed by right-wing Republicans). I sure hope you didn't put 'some form of it' to include Obamacare.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    you say that but that was floated around during the election this year.



    It's different as we have a constitutional monarchy and liberal democracy with social democrats dominating our political landscape.
    So you are a monarchist? I repeat RayApparentlyhow does it feel to have a Tory in your party and one who doesn't support your party's constitutional stance on the monarchy?
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    A political party supporting a broadly left-wing institution for unknown reasons does not make that party left wing. To see where a party lies all of the policies of that party must be examined first, after this a majority position of the polices can be determined. Privatisation is associated with the right, lower welfare is associated with the right, lower immigration is associated with the right, militaristic foreign policy is associated with the right, and lower corporation tax is associated with the right; the Conservative party's association with these ideas determine its centre-right position on the spectrum, its support for left-wing institutions only makes it less right, not left.
    Yet having a large public sector is seen as left, having a relatively high welfare bill is seen as left, we have immigration in the hundreds of thousands and that's pretty left, we have a government terrified of putting boots on the ground and can therefore be seen as left, corporations still pay at least 20% tax on profits so left again.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Whilst socialistic healthcare systems are common in Europe due to the post-War consensus the NHS isn't Obamacare (a measure proposed by relatively left-wing Democrats and opposed by right-wing Republicans). I sure hope you didn't put 'some form of it' to include Obamacare.
    And the only people who oppose it are entitled or bitter.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    you say that but that was floated around during the election this year.



    It's different as we have a constitutional monarchy and liberal democracy with social democrats dominating our political landscape.

    They are not though

    This is the way I see it I know you do not Like these but i have done it anyway


    C labour is where I think Corbyns Labour will be
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    (Original post by United1892)
    Not really, he sees one similar policy and therefore decides there trots to.
    It's more than that though, it's also the rhetoric that's used. I genuinely thought that Cameron was more compassionate than Blair whilst he was in opposition.

    (Original post by Aph)
    So you are a monarchist? I repeat RayApparentlyhow does it feel to have a Tory in your party and one who doesn't support your party's constitutional stance on the monarchy?
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    Yet having a large public sector is seen as left, having a relatively high welfare bill is seen as left, we have immigration in the hundreds of thousands and that's pretty left, we have a government terrified of putting boots on the ground and can therefore be seen as left, corporations still pay at least 20% tax on profits so left again.
    Not really there are many right wing people who are pro-immigration to drive down wages.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    The point of 'some form of it' was admitting that the NHS isn't perfect.

    And it is in western society, even the USA has Obama care
    France doesn't have nationalised healthcare, it has healthcare that is mostly free at the point of use, but mostly provided by the private sector. Germany's model is based round what seem to be essentially health insurance co-operatives, with a mixture of public and private hospitals. These systems are no worse than what we have in the UK.
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    (Original post by United1892)
    Peter Hitchens calling something left wing is not a good argument.
    Probably a know it all but Know nothing journalist
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    It's more than that though, it's also the rhetoric that's used. I genuinely thought that Cameron was more compassionate than Blair whilst he was in opposition.
    Not really they'll happily describe all people on benefits as scroungers.
 
 
 
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