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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV Watch

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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    Confidence boosters
    Err, I'm not sure why you felt the need to plaster my name all over your post but if you are attempting to indicate that I am always on your thoughts at all time, then I'm flattered! Truly.

    I wish I could return the compliment but unfortunately, the reverse just isn't the same. However, I did want to say, in response to your post (which seems to have been mistakenly aimed at me), that the manner and form in which those on "other side", so to speak, cannot refrain from giving each other "confidence boosters" to constantly but erroneously reassure themselves that they are "right", is just so terribly amusing

    Keep it up guys!
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Err, I'm not sure why you felt the need to plaster my name all over your post
    By which you mean to say, "You mentioned my name once". I know that given you're not married yet, it feels very good when someone mentions your name, but try not to overplay it.

    And on the substantive (relatively speaking) issue, you and mcxxxvvviiiiiii1111!!111 are so insubstantial that you literally blend into one another. Neither of you have made any particular impression on me beyond, "Shrieky, hysterical pro-Hamas user" so I thought you were the same person
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    Ithink you're ng delusions of grandeur. But that's cool, I'll wait for you to actually debate by responding to UniofLife's points before taking your claim seriously.
    Which post didn't I respond to? He's the one that made a fool of himself yesterday after saying claiming I didn't reply to his post which was directed at another member. Then
    all of a sudden he disappears without posting any replies to me-

    So you're repeating your own, self-serving claim, and ascribing it to someone else, and expecting people to take you seriously? Haha, that's cool
    Its a fact
    Given you prefer these side skirmishes to actually addressing the points he's made, I rather think you're the one who can't debate
    Which points exactly? Arent you 2 ganging up on someone who cant debate
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    (Original post by Huskaris)
    I also ponder this, do you think (as I do) that it might be because we actually don't expect Muslim nations/factions to have any real standards, Israel on the other hand is basically a Western democracy dropped in the Middle East, and as such we expect higher standards from them?

    I think that's probably it to be honest, and it doesn't make it right at all, but I just think we don't expect anything of Muslim nations. They've killed each other over nothing for thousands of years and they will continue to do so for thousands more, because a book means more to them than other lives.
    I totally take your point. More is expected of a Western democracy.

    But the people who are making the most of this, the Muslim community, don't expect more. Many of them hate the West, they think we are all *******s who just want to drink the blood of Muslim children.

    Thus, one can detect a degree of hypocrisy in the level of attention they pay to Israeli "crimes". Personally, I have no doubt that you are more than sincere on this subject. My concern is about the 420 million Arabs and 1.1 billion Muslims (as opposed to 16 million Jews, of which 6 million are in Israel) that they are being disingenuous in their criticism and shrieks of "genocide"
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    (Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
    Though I am sure there's a culture of Arab-hating in the IDF, due to various reason.
    And what do you think the culture is in Hamas? Do you think it's "We only hate Israeli soldiers, not all Jews. And we totally accept anyone, no matter what their sexuality".

    Do you think that's the culture in Hamas?
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    And what do you think the culture is in Hamas? Do you think it's "We only hate Israeli soldiers, not all Jews. And we totally accept anyone, no matter what their sexuality".

    Do you think that's the culture in Hamas?
    Ahhh, here we have the classic and ubiquitous squirming "rebuttal" given by those of the pro-Zionist leaning, the "whataboutery"....

    So cliched...
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Ahhh, here we have the classic and ubiquitous squirming "rebuttal" given by those of the pro-Zionist leaning, the "whataboutery"....

    So cliched...
    By "whataboutery", you mean "Don't compare like with like". (apples with apples)

    I'm not sure if you've been to university yet, but comparing "like with like" is the basis of sociological, social and political comparison.
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    I totally take your point. More is expected of a Western democracy.

    But the people who are making the most of this, the Muslim community, don't expect more. Many of them hate the West, they think we are all *******s who just want to drink the blood of Muslim children.

    Thus, one can detect a degree of hypocrisy in the level of attention they pay to Israeli "crimes". Personally, I have no doubt that you are more than sincere on this subject. My concern is about the 420 million Arabs and 1.1 billion Muslims (as opposed to 16 million Jews, of which 6 million are in Israel) that they are being disingenuous in their criticism and shrieks of "genocide"
    I understand the hypocrisy of course but this whole " war on terror" as the west calls its constant wars in Islamic countries can only fall under "war on terror" and thus retain the support of the western public if we are 100% sure we are morally superior. Therefore the second we lower ourselves to "their" standards we in the eyes of many, become as bad as them and are no longer fighting a just war. The brutality that one British soldier commits will be shouted about more, even by many of the British public, than the cold blooded execution of a British man, purely because we are "superior" and expect ourselves to be better than them.

    Its a fight the west has to fight, but in PR times its a fight it has to to be fought a certain way. Israel, rightly or wrongly, didn't get that memo and as such is exceptionally unpopular with western democracies.

    As for shrieks of genocide, those people are ridiculous, Hamas would commit genocide on all Jews on earth ttomorrow if you put the button in front of them and turned your back.
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    Yup, the top brass of the IDF are naive idiots.
    Wow, this selective quoting is so great. I'm glad you agree with me.
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    (Original post by Huskaris)
    Therefore the second we lower ourselves to "their" standards we in the eyes of many, become as bad as them and are no longer fighting a just war.
    I would agree with you if it were Britain bombing Gaza, but it's not. The Jews are just like any other Middle Eastern tribe, just with better weapons. And they behave like it. I don't fault them for it, particularly given within their own country, they behave quite civilly

    Its a fight the west has to fight, but in PR times its a fight it has to to be fought a certain way. Israel, rightly or wrongly, didn't get that memo and as such is exceptionally unpopular with western democracies.
    The things is, I totally agree that this is basically tribal warfare with modern weapons. But that is what the Middle East is like. And the fact is, the Jews are really good at this game. Better than the Arabs. Unlike the Western world. they have agents who can go into Arab/Palestinian cities and speak the language and pretend to be them. They turn Arabs by the thousands to act as informants. The Jews know how to play the Middle East game. Applying Western morality to it is futile, it's a completely different world.

    Yes, Israel acts like a modern democracy in the sense that they give their Arabs full civil and voting rights, they treat gay people well, women have full equal opportunities. But on the military side of things, they say "**** it, we are in the Middle East, and we're going to act like it". Personally, I can't fault them for that

    As for shrieks of genocide, those people are ridiculous, Hamas would commit genocide on all Jews on earth ttomorrow if you put the button in front of them and turned your back
    I completely agree. And I think the opposite does not apply given there are 1.6 million Arabs in Israel that the Jews could have easily wiped out, but they are not barbarians. They hate what this conflict is doing to them, they hate that this conflict is making them harsh, that it hardens their hearts. They despise the deadening of their moral senses it has. But to be honest, I think the Palestinians have contributed to that
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Wow, this selective quoting is so great. I'm glad you agree with me.
    And I'm glad you felt so threatened by my response, so paralysed by it, that you couldn't produce a retort
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    And what do you think the culture is in Hamas? Do you think it's "We only hate Israeli soldiers, not all Jews. And we totally accept anyone, no matter what their sexuality".

    Do you think that's the culture in Hamas?
    Probably?
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    (Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
    Probably?
    I couldn't possibly say. Given I'm a "dirty Hasbara Zionist Jew", I wouldn't dare comment on what Hamas is actually like.

    I couldn't possibly comment on how they treat gay men, or feminists, or the children they kill working to build their terror tunnels
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    As I have already stated, I'm sure you will have plenty of takers should you decide to create a new thread.
    Becuase you dare not actually respond on this thread regarding your position on Hamas' policy

    Why are you so afraid to declare your position? What is your position on gay men and feminism?
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    Becuase you dare not actually respond on this thread regarding your position on Hamas' policy

    Why are you so afraid to declare your position? What is your position on gay men and feminism?
    Would you like me to reiterate?

    I will not be drawn on something which is an attempt to strawman which you feel would be sufficient enough to derail the thread.

    Now, if you do not have anything further to add than your incessant fatuous strawman questioning or if you are refusing to do as requested and create a new thread, then perhaps you might consider to be an obliging chap and leave others in peace?
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    First time poster in this thread. I don't want to get involved in any lengthy debates, just wanted to share a few interesting facts published by Wikileaks. Links to the leaked cables are in the tweets themselves.

    Israel secretly told US of its plan to destroy 's economy
    https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/496200757734289408

    Israel secretly told US "Dahiya Doctrine"- deliberate targeting of civilians is official policy
    https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/496199342110547968

    Israel admitted to using Palestinians as human shields on more than 1,200 occasions
    https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/496257685059555328

    Israel secretly told US embassy in Telaviv its formal policy to keep at the brink of a humanitarian crisis
    https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/495676831853338624

    Also
    https://wikileaks.org/wiki/CIA_OSC:_...ents,_Apr_2009

    According to Haaretz, "An analysis of the data reveals that, in the vast majority of the settlements - about 75 percent - construction, sometimes on a large scale, has been carried out without the appropriate permits or contrary to the permits that were issued,", and "The database also shows that, in more than 30 settlements, extensive construction of buildings and infrastructure (roads, schools, synagogues, yeshivas and even police stations) has been carried out on private lands belonging to Palestinian West Bank residents."
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    I suggest that posters in this thread stick to constructive discussion of the topic at hand, any further off topic posting will be removed and carded.
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    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/uk-voters-israel-disproportionate-gaza-poll


    Majority of the UK is on Gazas side. Remember 1000 "Random" people were selected to vote on the polls.

    52% Believe Israel acted disproportionately in the month long conflict
    19% believed Israel acted proportionately in the month long conflict
    29% Did not know
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    Actually it credits the Institute for Palestine Studies :lol: I think you're hallucinating. Where does it mention Jpost in the article? Quote it

    You are confirming you have a psychological need to believe it's not true. Even propaganda outlets and biased sources often rely on things that are true but embarrassing to the other side

    By dismissing it out of hand you are supporting the death of Palestinian children. You are turning a blind eye to their deaths for ideological reasons. Shame on you




    When I read the article yesterday, in small italic writing at the bottom of the page it said h/t Jerusalem Post. Funnily enough it's gone, and the title has also changed to a less dramatic one.

    It's important to question what you read in the papers, and the dramatic 'Tunnels of Terror' that was previously in the title made me a bit skeptical. FullofSurprises provided a reasonable and well-informed reply to my post telling me that the source was in fact reliable. She didn't feel the need to insult, don't know why you are incapable of that.
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    In my view:

    Israel has its right to defend its people for the rocket attacks it’s facing. Any nation has its right to wage a war IF its citizens are in danger. IF the reports that I have read are correct and it was Hamas that fired the first rocket then I am supporting Israel.

    The way Israel is doing this however, Brute Force, Isn't working. Gaza is a tiny place where thousands of people are living, drop a 500lb bombs anywhere in a densely packed area even if there is a legitimate target, and say a rocket site or tank, will cause significant casualties no matter what. This isn't right and must stop!

    But in saying that, you have to ask, How do Hamas still want to continue this "war" even when so many of its people are dying? Why are there rocket sites in the middle of cities when they know that retaliation from Israel will cause them to put civilians in harms way?

    Both sides are at fault here and it’s a tragedy what’s happening. It’s diabolical that this has happened so many times in the last decade. But the tension and hatred will always exist.
 
 
 
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