The Commons Bar Mk IX - MHoC Chat Thread Watch

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KingStannis
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#5281
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#5281
(Original post by RayApparently)
All this gets away from the fact that UKIP relies on votes from the less politically aware.
In fairness so does every party to an extent. Maybe except the liberals.
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RayApparently
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#5282
(Original post by KingStannis)
In fairness so does every party to an extent. Maybe except the liberals.
There's no denying that.
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James Milibanter
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(Original post by KingStannis)
In fairness so does every party to an extent. Maybe except the liberals.
Well as a Green Campaigner I have found that the majority of our support comes from the politically aware, I'd say that Labour and UKIP are the ones that gain most from the politically unaware. Hence why I hear from Kippers "get rid of the immigrants", and from Labourites "get rid of the tories", these people all know very little about what their parties stand for, or nearly anything at all about the political landscape as a whole.
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bun
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(Original post by James Milibanter)
Well as a Green Campaigner I have found that the majority of our support comes from the politically aware, I'd say that Labour and UKIP are the ones that gain most from the politically unaware. Hence why I hear from Kippers "get rid of the immigrants", and from Labourites "get rid of the tories", these people all know very little about what their parties stand for, or nearly anything at all about the political landscape as a whole.
I'd agree with you there. Think UKIP and Labour certainly are the least politically aware and educated. Greens I've always found a mix. You certainly get the odd 'angry voice' fed up at 'x y and z' but without thinking about consequences and voting green just to attack rich people. But, I also think the majority seem to come across as quite aware politically
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ByronicHero
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(Original post by bun)
I'd agree with you there. Think UKIP and Labour certainly are the least politically aware and educated. Greens I've always found a mix. You certainly get the odd 'angry voice' fed up at 'x y and z' but without thinking about consequences and voting green just to attack rich people. But, I also think the majority seem to come across as quite aware politically
I'm not sure how you expect Labour voters to be as "politically...educated" as Conservative voters when most Conservative voters are products of an education system which is massively biased in their favour,

In all seriousness, I don't think there is any great disparity between the political awareness of any of the parties "average" voters; though, if there is, I agree that it would be a product of green voters' hyper-political dogma which tends to be birthed on facebook and finds its terminus under the shoes of some kettle-forming policeman at some protest or another.

Anyway, I re-joined Labour at about 5AM yesterday morning in anticipation of a leadership election so that I can cast my vote in it.
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KingStannis
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(Original post by James Milibanter)
Well as a Green Campaigner I have found that the majority of our support comes from the politically aware, I'd say that Labour and UKIP are the ones that gain most from the politically unaware. Hence why I hear from Kippers "get rid of the immigrants", and from Labourites "get rid of the tories", these people all know very little about what their parties stand for, or nearly anything at all about the political landscape as a whole.
And Green's "get rid of economic policy" isn't popularism? Anti austerity is populist. Anti west minister is populist. Anti bankers is popularism. And they people who like these are, mostly, those who haven't given it much thought.

Because politically aware people realise taxing everything that moves and harming jobs won't bring about "equality". Because of course austerity isn't gratuitous cruelty invented by Tories; they previously wanted to match Labour's spending, and look at Greece for an example of the consequences of not following it it to at least some extent. Because ALL parties are west minister Parties by definition. And if you're politically aware enough to actually read the manifestos, then Tory and Labour plans were polls apart. Because despite causing the crash the economy couldn't run without bankers, and they contribute far more than you.
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That Bearded Man
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Interesting that the Independent write today that one of the most common responses to "why did you vote Conservative" was because they voted for their best local candidate
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Aph
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(Original post by That Bearded Man)
Interesting that the Independent write today that one of the most common responses to "why did you vote Conservative" was because they voted for their best local candidate
If that's true then abolishing parties might not be such a bad thing...
independents running only plus AV... Then ministers elect people to office within their own ranks.
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KingStannis
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#5289
Has Jeanluc picard turn coated to the Tories? What the hell
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by Aph)
If that's true then abolishing parties might not be such a bad thing...
independents running only plus AV... Then ministers elect people to office within their own ranks.
Was discussing this last night on Facebook. The thing is it sounds all well and good on paper, but when they get to Westminster people will clump together into groups with similar ideas to increase their influence and you end up having parties again, even if informally

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PetrosAC
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(Original post by KingStannis)
Has Jeanluc picard turn coated to the Tories? What the hell
No, theres two of them, which is really confusing xD

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Rakas21
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(Original post by KingStannis)
Has Jeanluc picard turn coated to the Tories? What the hell
:confused:

Link me.
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ByronicHero
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(Original post by Rakas21)
:confused:

Link me.
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/member.php?u=461541
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KingStannis
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(Original post by Rakas21)
:confused:

Link me.
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=3309795
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Rakas21
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http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...=#post55567331

Seems green to me.
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Rakas21
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#5296
Ha. He's a different one.
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KingStannis
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(Original post by PetrosAC)
No, theres two of them, which is really confusing xD

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oh right. I was confused becuase he thinks that anyone to the right of Chairman Mao is the devil lol
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Aph
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
Was discussing this last night on Facebook. The thing is it sounds all well and good on paper, but when they get to Westminster people will clump together into groups with similar ideas to increase their influence and you end up having parties again, even if informally

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I don't doubt that... But informal party's would still be better and the person couldn't get in because of a 'safe seat' but would actually be more accountable to the electorate. It'd also reduce tactical voting I guess...
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thehistorybore
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(Original post by Aph)
See the issue I have is that they are appointed, like each year the government appoints them. Also as I recall when fees when up the lords were saying that they'd have veto' it but didn't feel that they had the mandate to do such. Maybe a better way would be to have a list of 'approved people' and then vote out of them to give them more of a mandate?

I know, but there are already advisors and scrutiny panels in the house already...
You have an issue with the undemocratic nature of the Lords, and I respect and understand that. But I see the value of them being advisors as Jammy Duel does.

Perhaps that would solve the issue, although again it does not make a perfect system.
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Saracen's Fez
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(Original post by thehistorybore)
Is it not an advantage to have Portillo moments? I have a feeling that Balls was unseated because he's a disgusting slimy man as well as because of the swing to the Tories. You'd also have to change the system for getting the Speaker a seat also (poor show with UKIP/Greens contesting the Speaker this year, don't you think?).

I'd be interested to see how that is mooted.
Probably, yes. There are variations using an open list (where voters can express their preference for particular members on the list rather than the party themselves deciding the order) but I don't 100% understand how they work.

I would follow the Irish system and have the Speaker returned automatically. Over there that is possible (using STV) without disenfranchising that constituency as there are still at least two other seats in the constituency to be filled. Under AMS you have two possible scenarios:

(a) The Speaker is a constituency MP and so there is no constituency election. Voters still get to vote for the party list. Should the Speaker resign and not wish to remain an MP, a regular by-election is held.
(b) The Speaker is a top-up regional MP. All constituency elections take place as normal and the top-up calculations are carried out with one fewer top-up seat. A note is also made of who would have won an extra seat had there been one, as they would take the seat vacated should the Speaker resign from Parliament.

I agree that it was poor of the Greens and UKIP to run against the Speaker. That just shows the political small-fry that they seem to think that they still are.

It'll be a massive task to write a watertight piece of legislation though.
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