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    (Original post by Stevelee)
    In my view:

    But in saying that, you have to ask, How do Hamas still want to continue this "war" even when so many of its people are dying?
    The sentiment for continuing the war until the emancipation of the Gazans is felt by Gaza throughout: Gaza is an open air prison who are forced on a deliberate "calorie count" diet amongst other sick things by Israel. Gazans don't want to go back to this crippling siege and want Hamas to continue to resist and fight for their freedom. I invite you to please read this article on the attitude of the Gazans about this war particularly the heartfelt quotes.
    http://www.latimes.com/world/middlee...ry.html#page=1
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    (Original post by Person1001)
    The sentiment for continuing the war until the emancipation of the Gaza is felt by Gaza throughout. Gazans don't want to go back to this crippling siege and will fight for their freedom. I invite you to please read this article on the attitude of the Gazans about this war.
    http://www.latimes.com/world/middlee...ry.html#page=1
    I have read a similar article from the gaurdian and I understand that they are fighting to lift the embargo emposed onto them, but fighting never solves anything. It makes all the dipolmacy you have acheived up until then void.

    Its a circle of repition - 2004 - 2006. All with the same agenda.

    With no major international pressure on israel they have no need to lift the embargo. Its a harsh reality really. Hamas is fighting a war it can never win due to no restrictions of arms or pressure on israel.

    Its a shame the middle east is always in the news for the terrible reasons.
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    (Original post by Stevelee)
    In my view:

    Israel has its right to defend its people for the rocket attacks it’s facing. Any nation has its right to wage a war IF its citizens are in danger. IF the reports that I have read are correct and it was Hamas that fired the first rocket then I am supporting Israel.

    The way Israel is doing this however, Brute Force, Isn't working. Gaza is a tiny place where thousands of people are living, drop a 500lb bombs anywhere in a densely packed area even if there is a legitimate target, and say a rocket site or tank, will cause significant casualties no matter what. This isn't right and must stop!

    But in saying that, you have to ask, How do Hamas still want to continue this "war" even when so many of its people are dying? Why are there rocket sites in the middle of cities when they know that retaliation from Israel will cause them to put civilians in harms way?

    Both sides are at fault here and it’s a tragedy what’s happening. It’s diabolical that this has happened so many times in the last decade. But the tension and hatred will always exist.
    You can't be serious. Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian territories, why should Palestinians be okay with that? If for a moment we imagine that there is no exchange of fire between Israel and Hamas, what would happen? Netanyahu would announce thousands of new illegal settlements. What would the international community do? Nothing. Condemnation here and there, no concrete actions. It wouldn't stop there and the cycle would keep on repeating.
    In my post here ( http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...php?p=49331615) it has been revealed that Israel wants to keep Gaza in a humanitarian crisis, keeping it's economy at the worst level possible. Combine that with no sewage, water and energy infrastructure (as Israel recently bombed the only power plant in Gaza) and you've got an uninhabitable place, which would force people to move out so there is minimal resistance to new illegal settlements.
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    (Original post by Stevelee)
    I have read a similar article from the gaurdian and I understand that they are fighting to lift the embargo emposed onto them, but fighting never solves anything. It makes all the dipolmacy you have acheived up until then void.t.
    Although Israel instigated this 5-week conflict, Hamas' resistance is what has brought the attention of the Gaza crisis to the world again - and its a shame really that the recent conflict has only piqued the governments about Israels terrorism over Gaza.
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    (Original post by Stevelee)
    In my view:

    Israel has its right to defend its people for the rocket attacks it’s facing. Any nation has its right to wage a war IF its citizens are in danger. IF the reports that I have read are correct and it was Hamas that fired the first rocket then I am supporting Israel.
    Israel instigated the recent conflict. Not Hamas.

    Prior to the current situation, there had existed a whole 19 months of ceasefire between Israel and Hamas. The ceasefire followed an Israeli aerial bombardment of Gaza in November 2012 called Operation Pillar of Defense. An Israeli think tank with good access to Israel’s military leadership, the ‘Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center’ (ITIC) had reported that, in the months following the ceasefire, Hamas rocket fire had stopped completely, while the Jerusalem post reported in May 2013 that “Hamas had replaced policemen in the Gaza Strip border areas with fighters from its armed wing, Izzadin Kassam, in an effort to stop rocket fire”.

    Hamas rocket fire started on July 8 after Israeli forces bombed and killed six Hamas members in Gaza the night before – in the absence of rocket fire. In fact this was just the culmination of a number of Israeli breaches of the ceasefire. After the kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers in June, Israel attacked 60 targets in Gaza over three weeks, in the face of Hamas’s denial of responsibility and a complete lack of evidence of Hamas complicity. 369 Israeli incursions into the West Bank between June 12 and July 2 killed 11 Palestinians, wounded 51 and arrested around 350 (including nearly all of Hamas’s West Bank leaders) while raising hundreds of houses in the West Bank each week. In fact, on July 25, Israeli police officials admitted that the Hamas leadership had not ordered, nor had any knowledge of, the kidnappings and that they had been the work of a “lone cell”.

    Hamas showed incredible restraint throughout those three weeks of Israeli madness and only commenced rocket fire when Israeli forces killed six Hamas members in Gaza on the night of July 7 – the straw that broke the camel’s back.
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    (Original post by Stevelee)
    In my view:

    Israel has its right to defend its people for the rocket attacks it’s facing.
    They have the ID for that.

    Any nation has its right to wage a war IF its citizens are in danger.
    And I believe that taking up arms to resist occupiers is also an enshrined right.

    IF the reports that I have read are correct and it was Hamas that fired the first rocket then I am supporting Israel.
    Your reports probably have no proof.

    The way Israel is doing this however, Brute Force, Isn't working. Gaza is a tiny place where thousands of people are living, drop a 500lb bombs anywhere in a densely packed area even if there is a legitimate target, and say a rocket site or tank, will cause significant casualties no matter what. This isn't right and must stop!
    Clearly the Settler State disagrees...

    But in saying that, you have to ask, How do Hamas still want to continue this "war" even when so many of its people are dying? Why are there rocket sites in the middle of cities when they know that retaliation from Israel will cause them to put civilians in harms way?
    Where else shall they put them? Eventually, they are going to have to fire from cities. You said yourself, it is a "densely packed area"...

    Both sides are at fault here and it’s a tragedy what’s happening. It’s diabolical that this has happened so many times in the last decade. But the tension and hatred will always exist.
    Do you think the Israel should exist?
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    [/QUOTE]
    (Original post by Person1001)
    Israel instigated the recent conflict. Not Hamas.
    Wherever you look there are different views on who started this conflict. The BBC claims that Hamas kidnapped and killed several Israeli teenagers. This was then followed by the airstrikes you were saying.


    You can't be serious. Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian territories, why should Palestinians be okay with that? If for a moment we imagine that there is no exchange of fire between Israel and Hamas, what would happen? Netanyahu would announce thousands of new illegal settlements. What would the international community do? Nothing. Condemnation here and there, no concrete actions. It wouldn't stop there and the cycle would keep on repeating.
    In my post here ( http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...php?p=49331615) it has been revealed that Israel wants to keep Gaza in a humanitarian crisis, keeping it's economy at the worst level possible. Combine that with no sewage, water and energy infrastructure (as Israel recently bombed the only power plant in Gaza) and you've got an uninhabitable place, which would force people to move out so there is minimal resistance to new illegal settlements.
    I never said what Israeli is doing is okay. I am clearly stating that Hamas is fighting a war it can't win and it is affecting thousands of peoples lives.

    as Israel recently bombed the only power plant in Gaza
    Israeli are treating this like a full on war. Thus using every weapon in its arsenal and using it to disrupt communications, transportation and anything usable by the militant wing of Hamas. Thus the power plant. This is what happens when you fight on your doorstep.

    it has been revealed that Israel wants to keep Gaza in a humanitarian crisis
    Am sorry but It says in the Hamas charter that they would happily destroy Israeli if given the chance and in turn commit genocide.

    Looking back in history, when did fighting ever solve issues? Fighting causes more problems than anything else!

    Whats key to stopping this conflict, lifting the embargos, stopping rocket attacks and generally living in peace is diplomacy not fighting. But we don't live in an ideal world and with no international pressure it is unlikely, but it doesnt mean renewing a ongoing conflict!
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    (Original post by Stevelee)

    Wherever you look there are different views on who started this conflict. The BBC claims that Hamas kidnapped and killed several Israeli teenagers. This was then followed by the airstrikes you were saying.
    The sequence of events that I quoted are not disputed. They clearly outline Israel as instigating this conflict. The BBC do not claim that Hamas murdered the three Israeli teenagers. The Israeli police admitted even that the killings had nothing to do with Hamas.

    The reason why Israel started this recent war is because of the Hamas- Fatah unity agreement which presented a huge problem for Israel.
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    (Original post by Stevelee)
    But in saying that, you have to ask, How do Hamas still want to continue this "war" even when so many of its people are dying? Why are there rocket sites in the middle of cities when they know that retaliation from Israel will cause them to put civilians in harms way?
    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Where else shall they put them? Eventually, they are going to have to fire from cities. You said yourself, it is a "densely packed area"...
    I attach a picture taken from a UN report showing the Gaza Strip and its urban and non-urban areas. The picture comes from page 10 of this report (it's a long PDF so follow link with care). There certainly appear to be plenty of open space where Hamas could store and fire their rockets.

    Let me now quote from a report from the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (source page 6 of this PDF)

    The Strip's land area of 365 square kilometers included Israeli settlements before the implementation of the Israeli unilateral disengagement plan on 12 September 2005. The settlements occupied 37 square kilometers before the signing of the Oslo Accords. The remainder of the land was distributed as follows: 168 square kilometers of agricultural land, 56.5 square kilometers of housing and 103.5 square kilometers of sand dunes and arid land.
    That's 28% of the Strip being sand dunes and arid land. If you add on agricultural land to that you have 74% of the land area being non-built up. So there would certainly appear to be plenty of space which Hamas and other terrorist groups could use to store their weapons and fire them.

    If we consider for a moment why Hamas does not build a military base in an open area to store rockets and fire them from it is obvious. The base would not last 5 minutes. Israel would target it from the air, destroy it and that would be the end of that. They have no choice but to place their weapons in populated areas and fire them from populated areas or else they would not be able to fire for very long. This is precisely what is meant by "human shields" in this context. In order to protect themselves and their ability to fire they operate from within populated areas - by choice - because they know this makes it harder for Israel to stop them. And the only reason it makes it harder for Israel to stop them is that Israel is hesitant to fire on populated areas.

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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    Maps and figures
    Firstly, can I ask if your images and figures up to date?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Firstly, can I ask if your images and figures up to date?
    The image is from 2009. The figures from 2006.

    Do you have more recent figures?
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    (Original post by Person1001)
    The sentiment for continuing the war until the emancipation of the Gazans is felt by Gaza throughout: Gaza is an open air prison who are forced on a deliberate "calorie count" diet amongst other sick things by Israel.
    Ah yes, the old "calorie count" canard.

    This is presumably why there are five star hotels in Gaza who are baking wedding cakes so big they have to be cut with a crane?

    The fact is that anyone who has travelled to Africa and seen pictures from Gaza will know those people aren't starving, and the squeeling from Muslims and the Western left is just getting a bit pathetic, given their choice to conveniently ignore Muslim-on-Muslim violence on a far greater scale
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    I
    That's 28% of the Strip being sand dunes and arid land. If you add on agricultural land to that you have 74% of the land area being non-built up
    When I brought this up to tsr1269, he said it's far better that people die than crops be destroyed by Israeli return fire.

    It's a bizarre comment because it's not as if a 500lb bomb, which can kill a dozen people, can destroy enough food to starve a dozen people.

    But of course he will say anything to justify Hamas' firing its rockets from built up areas. Anything to see more dead Palestinians to parade in front of the cameras, he will support. He'll fight to the last drop of their blood
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    And I'm glad you felt so threatened by my response, so paralysed by it, that you couldn't produce a retort
    And I could say exactly the same to you, after all, you ignored what? 95% of the post?
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    Ah yes, the old "calorie count" canard.

    This is presumably why there are five star hotels in Gaza who are baking wedding cakes so big they have to be cut with a crane?

    The fact is that anyone who has travelled to Africa and seen pictures from Gaza will know those people aren't starving, and the squeeling from Muslims and the Western left is just getting a bit pathetic, given their choice to conveniently ignore Muslim-on-Muslim violence on a far greater scale
    I genuinely didn't know about this cake business. Amazing. I assume this was the cake in question:

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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    The image is from 2009. The figures from 2006.

    Do you have more recent figures?
    Google Maps is pretty up to date, why don't you use those in your images?
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    (Original post by Stevelee)
    This isn't right and must stop!
    No only is it entirely right and proper, and completely legal under international law, it's also the case that no nation could allow a terrorist group to create for themselves a privileged sanctuary behind which they could fire rockets with no comeback.

    Why doesn't Hamas fire their rockets from the extensive open areas, agricultural lands and desert area in Gaza? Because when Israel fired back, no civilians would die. And that's unacceptable to Hamas. Civilians must die according to their strategy

    But in saying that, you have to ask, How do Hamas still want to continue this "war" even when so many of its people are dying?
    You can't be that naive? Hamas loves seeing dead Palestinians, the more die the better for them. Every dead child is a PR win for them.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    I genuinely didn't know about this cake business. Amazing. I assume this was the cake in question:

    Quite possibly. Either way, the Gazans are starving. It's like the Siege of Leningrad, don't you know?
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    Quite possibly. Either way, the Gazans are starving. It's like the Siege of Leningrad, don't you know?
    Except that cake was created in Connecticut and the only "news outlet" who have made that extraordinary claim that you have attributed to the Gazans was "FrontpageMag".

    An outlet whose editor is no other than David Horowitz, of whom no introduction is needed for his biased views...
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Google Maps is pretty up to date, why don't you use those in your images?
    They are less illustrative then the UN map which shows more detail. What Google Maps shows is pretty much the same as what the UN map shows.
 
 
 
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