Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BabySinclair)
    I wonder why they have a problem with Israel.
    Jews and Arabs are old enemies.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    I don't care which map you use so long as it is reliable. There are also figures I presented which are more useful than looking at a map and guessing. As I have said before quite clearly - present whatever evidence you want.



    I refer you to this post which proves that the condition "killing members of the group" requires killing a substantial proportion of the group. I quote from the article linked to in that post:



    As I said, the death toll in Gaza is certainly not a substantial part of the Palestinian population of Gaza. Ergo, Israel is certainly not committing genocide.
    'A substantial proportion' is a subjective statement and one that I do not deem worthy or of enough substance to take away from the atrocities the Israel is committing.

    According to an Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, Israel has been conducting a state-sponsored genocide against the Palestinians for decades and far more intensively in Gaza. He goes on to state that 'a genocide is taking place is Gaza...an average of eight Palestinians die daily in Israeli attacks on the strip. Most of them are children. Hundreds are maimed, wounded and paralyzed. (It's become) a daily business, now reported (only) in the internal pages of the local press, quite often in microscopic fonts. The chief culprits are the Israeli pilots who have a field day.'

    Whether you consider what is happening against the Palestinians genocide or not, it does not take away from lack of humanity shown by the Zionists.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    I love when I see comparisons of the Israel/Palestine conflict to the native Americans or Australia.

    The people making the comparison don't appear to realise that in this analogy, it is the Israeli Jews who are the native Americans / aborigines, the original inhabitants of the land, the people with the strongest and oldest connection to that area of the world, whereas the Muslim conquest of Palestine only occurred in the 7th century (unsure what the justification was, other than a thirst for other people's land)
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    By the way, where is the evidence that Israel committed any of those acts "with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part"?
    If you bear with me, I will collate my sources.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by striver17)
    If you bear with me, I will collate my sources.
    You're welcome to try. You won't find anything because it has never been Israeli state policy to murder the entire Palestinian group. And quotes from right-wing nutcases demonstrate nothing, what you need to show are state documents, cabinet decisions, something similar to the Wannsee Conference

    To be honest, it's pretty obscene to call this genocide because it suggests you have such tunnel vision on this issue that you've never bothered to study actual genocides (you know, like in Cambodia, Rwanda, the Armenian Genocide, the Holocaust). Interestingly, all of those involved masses of deaths, not a ludicrously small by comparison 1900
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by striver17)
    'A substantial proportion' is a subjective statement and one that I do not deem worthy or of enough substance to take away from the atrocities the Israel is committing.

    According to an Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, Israel has been conducting a state-sponsored genocide against the Palestinians for decades and far more intensively in Gaza. He goes on to state that 'a genocide is taking place is Gaza...an average of eight Palestinians die daily in Israeli attacks on the strip. Most of them are children. Hundreds are maimed, wounded and paralyzed. (It's become) a daily business, now reported (only) in the internal pages of the local press, quite often in microscopic fonts. The chief culprits are the Israeli pilots who have a field day.'

    Whether you consider what is happening against the Palestinians genocide or not, it does not take away from lack of humanity shown by the Zionists.
    Whilst there may be cases where "substantial" is subjective, Gaza is not such a case. Nobody in their right mind would call 0.1% a substantial part of anything.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    I love when I see comparisons of the Israel/Palestine conflict to the native Americans or Australia.

    The people making the comparison don't appear to realise that in this analogy, it is the Israeli Jews who are the native Americans / aborigines, the original inhabitants of the land, the people with the strongest and oldest connection to that area of the world, whereas the Muslim conquest of Palestine only occurred in the 7th century (unsure what the justification was, other than a thirst for other people's land)
    I strongly disagree with your statement, on both anthropological, historical and linguistic reasons.

    Firstly "Israel/Palestine" isn't analogous to the native American situation or the aborigines. Secondly, every single Jew, bar an incredibly small minority are European, they have no ties related to the Levant at all. Hebrews, people of Judah weren't originally Jews either - if we're technical Levantine Samaritans are the only endemic semitic group, of which has stayed in the interior of what we know as Israel.

    Secondly Jews aren't an ethnicity, it's an ethno-religious group, and for whatever vindication, or vilification you propose; the culturally Arabized Levantine population of which became the endemic people of "Israel" are the natives now, not the Jews.

    This doesn't mean I want the Jews out now (too late for that, I'd have been against a made-up state of Jewish Germans, Poles in the first place) but to ignore the reality that the modern Jews aren't endemic, is just naive.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    UniOfLife has already demonstrated precisely why it requires "substantial" killings to qualify as genocide.

    Though I take it you were extremely active in calling for the end of the Darfur Genocide? And Assad's genocide? After all, if 1900 Palestinians dead is a genocide in you book, I wonder what the Syrian Civil War constitutes?

    Or do you only get angry when it's Jews killing Muslims, and look the other way when it's Muslims killing Muslims or Muslims killing Yezidi/Christians etc
    Wow, I am surprised at how much people assume on these forums! Do not think that when I or any other person condemns one genocide, that we overlook another. The fact that the media has been failing to portray a reality is what has sparked up this debate in the Middle East yet again, and therefore, I have taken the opportunity to do my bit, not that it's any of your concern.

    Assad's regime is killing more people than Israel hands-down. I strongly condemn Assad and am well aware that what is happening there is far worse than in Gaza. Assad's regime in my opinion has no ounce of humanity in them.

    If you did your research properly, you would find that Muslims do not approve and also condemn the killing of Yezidis and Christians. A civilian is a civilian, no matter what their religion is. And the killing of civilians is not from Islam.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AntisthenesDogger)
    Secondly, every single Jew, bar an incredibly small minority are European
    Actually, no. Almost 2/3rds of the Jews in Israel are Mizrahi Jews (i.e. from the Middle East, Iraq, Yemen,etc).

    The fact you didn't know that, the fact you believed the vast majority of Jews in Israel were European, demonstrates you are so xenophobic and so biased against Israel that you would make up any fact, or accept any lie, without bothering to see if it's true.

    You should be ****ing ashamed of yourself
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by striver17)
    The UN, under Article Two, defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such":
    -Killing members of the group
    -Causing serious bodily harm or mental harm to members of the group
    -Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical damage in whole or In part
    -Imposing measures to prevent births within the group
    -Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

    Each and every one of these clauses can be witnessed in Palestine as we speak. If you would like me to give you examples of how Israel is breaching UN human rights laws under this definition of 'genocide,' I would be more than happy to.
    I've not seen any evidence that Israel is committing genocide.

    That's like saying if a white man is assaulted, then that's genocide against white people.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by striver17)
    If you did your research properly, you would find that Muslims do not approve and also condemn the killing of Yezidis and Christians. A civilian is a civilian, no matter what their religion is. And the killing of civilians is not from Islam.
    They could have fooled us, given the haunting silence from many Muslims on those subjects, and the proportionally far greater attention and criticism of Israel despite the fact that Syria is far worse.

    Syria has x100 more casualties, but Israel gets x100 more attention from the Muslim world. That suggests deep hypocrisy
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    You're welcome to try. You won't find anything because it has never been Israeli state policy to murder the entire Palestinian group. And quotes from right-wing nutcases demonstrate nothing, what you need to show are state documents, cabinet decisions, something similar to the Wannsee Conference

    To be honest, it's pretty obscene to call this genocide because it suggests you have such tunnel vision on this issue that you've never bothered to study actual genocides (you know, like in Cambodia, Rwanda, the Armenian Genocide, the Holocaust). Interestingly, all of those involved masses of deaths, not a ludicrously small by comparison 1900
    Well you can take a look at this for starters:

    http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/0...inian-mothers/

    What is happening in the Middle East is not a text book affair. You cannot simply read a party's constitution and not lift your head up and view the actual acts of the Parliament.

    If there was no desire for targeted killing, then UN schools, homes, hospitals and children would not have died.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    Actually, no. Almost 2/3rds of the Jews in Israel are Mizrahi Jews (i.e. from the Middle East, Iraq, Yemen,etc).

    The fact you didn't know that, the fact you believed the vast majority of Jews in Israel were European, demonstrates you are so xenophobic and so biased against Israel that you would make up any fact, or accept any lie, without bothering to see if it's true.

    You should be ****ing ashamed of yourself
    You should be, for your woeful lack of erudition on linguistics and ethnography. Mizrahi jews never identified as such till around the nationalising factor of "Israel" they were coined as Sephardi, and most were Syriac. Armenian, Greek - till later liberty from the Turkic and Mongol states holding Persia. Even then, it doesn't pursue your argument, as you're conflating ethno-religious groups (something not identified with any tangible evidence genetically) as ethnicity.

    And the figure for Mizrahi Jews (of which it is tenable Sephardi or Mizrahi affiliation) is around 2.8 million last I checked, apropos to the relation of European jews in Israel, yes most are European.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    They could have fooled us, given the haunting silence from many Muslims on those subjects, and the proportionally far greater attention and criticism of Israel despite the fact that Syria is far worse.

    Syria has x100 more casualties, but Israel gets x100 more attention from the Muslim world. That suggests deep hypocrisy
    In fact to claim the Levantine-arabized populace aren't endemic is just ridiculous, because it posits utter misconception on the nature of diaspora and how subjugated peoples linguistically, ergo "culturally" transform. Many of the Arabized levantine population now, were and are originally descending from the large Greek, Hebrew, Samaritan populaces. So by which definition are they not endemic? And modern Jews are?
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    They could have fooled us, given the haunting silence from many Muslims on those subjects, and the proportionally far greater attention and criticism of Israel despite the fact that Syria is far worse.

    Syria has x100 more casualties, but Israel gets x100 more attention from the Muslim world. That suggests deep hypocrisy
    'They' fooled you because that's exactly what you wanted to see and what certain news broadcasters failed to portray.

    Attention may seem to be on Israel now, only because of the blatant lies and escalation of violence. If you actually spoke to Muslims and saw the work that they did in Syria to help those displaced from their homes and starving, with no education, you would realise that you're completely unaware.

    There are people who will never be pleased with whatever the Muslims say or do and will always have something to winge about. I hope you're not one of them
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AntisthenesDogger)
    You should be, for your woeful lack of erudition on linguistics and ethnography. Mizrahi jews never identified as such till around the nationalising factor of "Israel" they were coined as Sephardi, and most were Syriac. Armenian, Greek - till later liberty from the Turkic and Mongol states holding Persia. Even then, it doesn't pursue your argument, as you're conflating ethno-religious groups (something not identified with any tangible evidence genetically) as ethnicity.

    And the figure for Mizrahi Jews (of which it is tenable Sephardi or Mizrahi affiliation) is around 2.8 million last I checked, apropos to the relation of European jews in Israel, yes most are European.
    So five minutes ago it was "Every single Jew In Israel (bar an incredibly small minority)" was European. Now its almost 3 millon. You admit you were lying through your teeth

    By the way Mizrahi doesn't mean sephardic (though they are sephardic). Now you're just scrambling to cover up your lack of knowledge (or outright lies)
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    So five minutes ago it was "Every single Jew In Israel (bar an incredibly small minority)" was European. Now its almost 3 millon. You admit you were lying through your teeth

    By the way Mizrahi doesn't mean sephardic (though they are sephardic). Now you're just scrambling to cover up your lack of knowledge (or outright lies)
    It was an obvious exaggeration. Meant to highlight the point of non-levantine descent. If you want to nitpick over that and not identify the content of which is; Jews are not descendant from the Israel, then sure. Do so.

    I never said it meant sephardic, don't straw man. I said they identified, as sephardi - Mizrahi is a relatively new invention, for the usage of of etonymy. I'm not scrambling anything... You're the one whom has rebuked nothing I've said. You continue to conflate ethno-religious groups as ethnic; you can't identify the historical makeup of Israel and your only contention is my exaggeration of the first point, for the sake of being ordaining of truth. You want to jump on that I exaggerated that? Sure, I admit I did. But everything else is true.

    And 2.8 million aprops to around 8 million Jews, is yes a small amount. Even if you want to be anachronistic and claim that Jews of whom didn't descend from Israel, but Roman Syria, the Caucasus are somehow endemic to it...
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AntisthenesDogger)
    It was an obvious exaggeration. Meant to highlight the point of non-levantine descent.
    It wasn't an "obvious exaggeration", it was a complete distortion. You said that "Every Jew", with a tiny qualification, was European. This is clearly not true. As recently as the 1970s, Mizrahi Jews were about 70% of the population, and anyone who has actually beem there will know this intuitively because so many Israelis look like Arabs or Middle Eastern.

    Mizrahi is a relatively new invention
    So? It's a very handy categorisation insteadg of saying "Baghdadi Jew, Yemeni Jew, Syriac Jew etc etc". And its newness does nothing for your argument given they remain resolutely non-European, despite your attempt to deny their very existence

    I'm not scrambling anything... You're the one whom has rebuked nothing I've said
    On the contrary, I've completely blown it out of the water. In an attempt to deny legitimacy to Israel, you claimed that almost all Israeli Jews are Europeans, in a grubby attempt to convey a colonial image. That was totally wrong, and you should offer a sincere apology to Mizrahi Jews. All your other arguments about what kind of grouping they are is irrelevant; it's not going to make them European. By the way, in 2006 it was estimated 61% of Israeli Jews are of Mizrahi descent

    And 2.8 million aprops to around 8 million Jews, is yes a small amount
    Wow. Yet another lie. 8 million is the population of Israel, not the number of Jews in Israel. There are 1.6 millon Arab Muslims in Israel
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    It wasn't an "obvious exaggeration", it was a complete distortion. You said that "Every Jew", with a tiny qualification, was European. This is clearly not true. As recently as the 1970s, Mizrahi Jews were about 70% of the population, and anyone who has actually beem there will know this intuitively because so many Israelis look like Arabs or Middle Eastern.



    So? It's a very handy categorisation insteadg of saying "Baghdadi Jew, Yemeni Jew, Syriac Jew etc etc". And its newness does nothing for your argument given they remain resolutely non-European, despite your attempt to deny their very existence



    On the contrary, I've completely blown it out of the water. In an attempt to deny legitimacy to Israel, you claimed that almost all Israeli Jews are Europeans, in a grubby attempt to convey a colonial image. That was totally wrong, and you should offer a sincere apology to Mizrahi Jews. All your other arguments about what kind of grouping they are is irrelevant; it's not going to make them European. By the way, in 2006 it was estimated 61% of Israeli Jews are of Mizrahi descent



    Wow. Yet another lie. 8 million is the population of Israel, not the number of Jews in Israel. There are 1.6 millon Arab Muslims in Israel

    Exaggeration, distortion, same synonym in this context. The rest of your point is utter fatuous. Around 2.7 million Mizrahi (and most identify as Sephardi, culturally) of 8+ million Israeli's That's not 75%. The rest of your point is just laughable in terms of genotype and phenotype.

    It does everything for my argument. You're stuck on the fact I said most are European. The premise is that they're not Israeli. Still true.

    The exaggeration means nothing, most are European. The rest aren't endemic to Israel. They're not ethnically Jews either. You're the only one here held up on the mention of "European Jews" unless you can't decipher semantics. This is a debate about Jews being endemic to Israel, not whether they're European; the fact a majority are, is simply fact.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by striver17)
    .

    Attention may seem to be on Israel now, only because of the blatant lies and escalation of violence. If you actually spoke to Muslims and saw the work that they did in Syria to help those displaced from their homes and starving, with no education, you would realise that you're completely unaware.
    equally you could open your eyes to the fact that some muslims are killing people by the truckload, ie in syria and iraq as we speak, and making millions homeless - many many times more signifcant in numbers, impact etc than anything any israeli operation has done.
    but muslims do not want to talk about this, or even bring up this comparison - so tell us again , who is being 'unaware'?
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: January 8, 2017
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Will you be richer or poorer than your parents?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.