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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Never claimed to be a world expert on Scotland as I'm not a Scot, but I do know a bit more about events here as someone who has lived here for the best part of a decade than someone who hasn't and admittedly knows very little.

    Corbyn and Dugdale have years and years of damage to fix and to do that they have to slowly win back trust and show that the SNP's flagship policy of independence would be a grave mistake. After all, as a member of UKIP, I would imagine the integrity of the union is something you value as well.
    Don't do yourself down you ARE a world expert. Every time I read your analysis of the Scottish political scene I feel privileged. You shouldn't let daylight into the magic...

    As for UKIP and the Scottish referendum, I was a better together kind of guy during the campaign, but since the result I find my emotional attachment to the union has waned.

    As long as it pertains, Labour is screwed which is very good. But if the Euro Referendum is close, Scotland could swing it for in. So ambivalence is the prevalent feeling.

    Thanks for asking though.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    TB rates would go through the roof in cattle.
    Genuine question as I've not heard this before, but why?
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Don't do yourself down you ARE a world expert. Every time I read your analysis of the Scottish political scene I feel privileged. You shouldn't let daylight into the magic...

    As for UKIP and the Scottish referendum, I was a better together kind of guy during the campaign, but since the result I find my emotional attachment to the union has waned.

    As long as it pertains, Labour is screwed which is very good. But if the Euro Referendum is close, Scotland could swing it for in. So ambivalence is the prevalent feeling.

    Thanks for asking though.
    My point is that as long as it is called UKIP, and not EIP, it should make an effort to appeal to all corners. Like I said it was quite bold in offering to scrap the Barnett formula and give full control of Scottish finances to Holyrood-which oddly the SNP do not want. They also stood candidates in Northern Ireland at the GE so again another bold move.

    It may also be of interest for you to know that recent polling of the SNP membership shows a majority would vote to leave Europe (55:45).
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    Genuine question as I've not heard this before, but why?
    Science shows that small scale culling makes TB worse.


    Essentially at the moment the conservatives are using taxpayers money to make TB worse. Fortunately at the same time they've introduced much better controls on moving catlle, so that's helped curb the effect. UKIP don't like said controls but also want small scale culling.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    My point is that as long as it is called UKIP, and not EIP, it should make an effort to appeal to all corners. Like I said it was quite bold in offering to scrap the Barnett formula and give full control of Scottish finances to Holyrood-which oddly the SNP do not want. They also stood candidates in Northern Ireland at the GE so again another bold move.

    It may also be of interest for you to know that recent polling of the SNP membership shows a majority would vote to leave Europe (55:45).
    That is interesting.

    UKIP is not presently a significant party in Scotland though, unfortunately, and the MEP is an embarrassment. So it would be a long climb to have impact.

    Changing the subject did you see the reports of the fractious PLP meeting last night, and the Shadow Chancellor's "volte face"?

    Thoughts?
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    That is interesting.

    UKIP is not presently a significant party in Scotland though, unfortunately, and the MEP is an embarrassment. So it would be a long climb to have impact.

    Changing the subject did you see the reports of the fractious PLP meeting last night, and the Shadow Chancellor's "volte face"?

    Thoughts?
    I have seen several reports and cannot say they make for pleasant reading. The U-turn on the fiscal charter is I believe being done less because of the impact it would have on any future government (which can always repeal it), but because he wants to avoid being seen as signing up to one of Osborne's ideas.

    His problem is that when you keep changing your mind on non-trivial matters it looks a lot worse than taking a bad position in the first place. My point on the SNP is to show that Labour are not the only ones trying to maintain a united front despite there being clear divisions of opinion. Europe will do for the Tories in due course.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    I have seen several reports and cannot say they make for pleasant reading. The U-turn on the fiscal charter is I believe being done less because of the impact it would have on any future government (which can always repeal it), but because he wants to avoid being seen as signing up to one of Osborne's ideas.
    He's fallen into Osborne's trap.

    Big picture: these guys just aren't up to it (Corbyn and Mc). There is a huge difference between sniping from the sidelines and actually coming up with a coherent message that will appeal to the electorate and unites your party. ESPECIALLY when you are so far to the left of all but a handful of your party's MP's.

    There isn't collective responsibility in policy. That isn't "new politics" it is madness.
    (Original post by Midlander)
    His problem is that when you keep changing your mind on non-trivial matters it looks a lot worse than taking a bad position in the first place. My point on the SNP is to show that Labour are not the only ones trying to maintain a united front despite there being clear divisions of opinion. Europe will do for the Tories in due course.
    I don't think so. Someone will have to govern the country whether we stay or leave, and with Labour unelectable, the Tories will step in to do it as is their wont.

    British politics, like nature, abhors a vacuum.
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    The zionist and wahabbi lobbies are too powerful for anything of the kind to happen but how it nice it would be if corbyn came in power and told Israel to go **** themselves
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    The A to Z of Corbyn. From a Labour Party source...
    The A-Z of Corbsplaining


    There’s been a lot of change in the Labour party of late – new people joining, new faces at the top and new language being used.
    To help readers, Uncut has produced this handy guide to Corbsplaining, keeping you up to date with the party’s exciting new vocabulary.
    Print it out, take it to your local CLP meeting and dazzle Labour friends and colleagues with your Corbsplaining skills.
    Next stop, the NEC!
    A
    Assist members making their voice heard – Use veteran hard left organisers to corral a herd of £3 hipsters to deselect troublesome MPs.
    Austerity – Any cut to public spending, of any kind, at any point, by any level of government. Does not include cuts to military spending, which are completely different and fine.
    B
    Britain – Socialist utopia with a progressive majority that opposes all austerity*
    *Apart from at general elections
    Burnhamite – A malleable substance that can bend and merge to form any shape required of it before ultimately imploding.
    C
    Corbynite – A rare and abstruse substance that destroys the trust of voters.
    Campaign Group – A group of MPs who do not campaign but do tweet a lot.
    D
    Democracy – A vital part of civilisation, to be protected and supported at all costs*.
    *Not applicable to residents of Iran, Russia, Donbass, Gaza, Lebanon or Venezuela.
    E
    Engaging in the name of peace – chillaxing with terrorists.
    F
    Friends – a neutral term that in no way conveys warmth or respect. What? Those guys? Sure, we had a few beers, high-fived a few times, played a short game of ‘Holocaust: fact or fiction’ and, yes, we hugged. But honestly, I barely know them.
    G
    Government – An oppressive institution that corrupts any who serve in it. Something that Tories, red Tories and imperialists ignobly aspire to run.
    H
    Hilary Benn – “A Benn not a Bennite.” Although quite happy to work for one.
    I
    Israel – The country that must-not-be-named, like a geographical Voldemort.
    J
    JC – Initials of both Jesus Christ and Jeremy Corbyn. Coincidence?
    Jeremy Corbyn – Visionary. Genius. Cardigan-wearer.
    K
    Kinder, gentler politics – The practice of constructive and vibrant democratic protest. Features include shouting, “Red Tory scum,” and the generous gift of high-velocity saliva.
    L
    Livingstone – Combination of intellectual touchstone and jobbing recruitment consultant, finding policies and advisers for the dear leader.
    M
    Miliband – Previous leader of the Labour party, whose ideas were insufficiently leftist, causing the electorate to vote Conservative in protest.
    Momentum – A spontaneous social movement, rising up to enact change in Britain. Not at all run by hard left organisers to deselect Labour MPs with absolutely no connection to Militant infiltrators expelled from the Labour party a generation ago.
    N
    Neo-liberal – Believers in the market. Known to burn villages, eat babies and join the parliamentary Labour party in order to propagate pro-village-burning and baby-eating polices.
    New politics – What to call the absence of a party policy. Allows the shadow cabinet and the leader to hold opposing views without anyone looking incoherent or shambolic. Apparently.
    O
    Osborne – Cunning and evil manipulator of the working class’ false consciousness. Preys on voters by talking about their concerns in a language they understand.
    P
    The Prime Minister – What the leader of Conservative party is called until at least 2025.
    The People – People who live in North London and/or work in the public sector.
    Prior diary commitment – What you organise quickly just after the Labour party press office schedule a tricky interview.
    Q
    people’s QE – The printing presses of the Weimar republic.
    R
    Red Tory – Honorific, often suffixed with the word “scum.” Applied to anyone in the Labour party who does not have a “Jez We Can” twibbon on their Twitter profile.
    S
    Smear – The journalistic practice of reproducing past statements by the leader and shadow chancellor, then asking them whether they still hold these views
    Shadow First Secretary of State – A prestigious appointment to the frontbench. Definitely not a tokenistic afterthought.
    Suit – the favoured attire of the paterno-capitalist class.
    T
    Tax avoidance – Magical source of unlimited funds which will be forthcoming following a “government crackdown.”
    Trident – A three-pointed spear, which will be standard issue for all British forces as a result of vital cuts to defence spending.
    Twitter – The voice of the people of Britain.
    U
    USA – Hotbed of evil. Source of global imperialism and all human misery. Answer to the question “Who’s fault is it?” whatever the context.
    V
    Vladimir Putin – Heroic scourge of imperialist oppression and enabler of freedom. Generously provides Russian troops to neighbouring countries to help make sure they are enjoying their freedom enough.
    W
    Watsonite – an unstable magnetic substance, irresistibly drawn to centres of power and liable to suddenly self-destruct without warning.
    X
    X – the mark voters put to the left of their chosen candidate’s name on the ballot paper. Unfortunately, there’s not much to the left of Jeremy Corbyn.
    Y
    Young people – They who will propel Jeremy Corybn into Number 10, thanks to their famous propensity to vote in general elections.
    Z
    Zero – the number of elections Labour will win before 2025.
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    "S
    Smear – The journalistic practice of reproducing past statements by the leader and shadow chancellor, then asking them whether they still hold these views"

    Bang on the money.
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    He's fallen into Osborne's trap.

    Big picture: these guys just aren't up to it (Corbyn and Mc). There is a huge difference between sniping from the sidelines and actually coming up with a coherent message that will appeal to the electorate and unites your party. ESPECIALLY when you are so far to the left of all but a handful of your party's MP's.

    There isn't collective responsibility in policy. That isn't "new politics" it is madness.

    I don't think so. Someone will have to govern the country whether we stay or leave, and with Labour unelectable, the Tories will step in to do it as is their wont.

    British politics, like nature, abhors a vacuum.
    Is the chancellor now concerned more with setting traps than actual governance? You aren't surely implying that the government passes things which are of political convenience rather than of genuine benefit to the public?

    Bernie Sanders is facing the same grief across the pond whilst trying to secure a Democrat nomination ahead of a more famous, more wealthy opponent who is hand in hands with the establishment. Yet still as more people hear his ideas even some on the Republican side are impressed and he is beating Clinton in some of the polls. He is doing this in much less time than Corbyn will have to garner support and he is showing that there is a place for progressive ideas and standing up to the big man even in the US.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    "S
    Smear – The journalistic practice of reproducing past statements by the leader and shadow chancellor, then asking them whether they still hold these views"

    Bang on the money.
    http://i100.independent.co.uk/articl...es--Z1DJtVY_Be
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)

    O
    Osborne – Cunning and evil manipulator of the working class’ false consciousness. Preys on voters by talking about their concerns in a language they understand.
    .
    Haha oh dear that cracked me up. Osborne is the man of the people, priceless. Think he has to wait behind Nigel 'Mine's a pint' Farage in the queue at the Dog and Duck though.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Is the chancellor now concerned more with setting traps than actual governance? You aren't surely implying that the government passes things which are of political convenience rather than of genuine benefit to the public?

    Bernie Sanders is facing the same grief across the pond whilst trying to secure a Democrat nomination ahead of a more famous, more wealthy opponent who is hand in hands with the establishment. Yet still as more people hear his ideas even some on the Republican side are impressed and he is beating Clinton in some of the polls. He is doing this in much less time than Corbyn will have to garner support and he is showing that there is a place for progressive ideas and standing up to the big man even in the US.
    This piece of legislation is a complete waste of parliamentary time. It will have no effect whatsoever on the country or the economy. And it has a pretty obvious and crude political intent. But if the Labour leadership are going to be unbelievably stupid in the way they respond, exposing their own incompetence and division, you can't really blame Osborne. There is an open goal, he is sticking the ball into the back of the net.

    And there is a serious point too. These guys aspire to run our economy, and they aren't fit to. Revealing this is quite appropriate, for all our sakes, (including yours!) Most people don't follow politics that closely and are probably not aware of the details of this. But the general impression of economic incompetence will seep out of the media into the national consciousness. It will be fatal to Labour electorally long term, you must see this, no?

    I am impressed with Bernie Sanders, and wish him well. He is ploughing a very lonely furrow. But he will NEVER become US President. I'll give you fifty pounds to your ten that doesn't happen. If you want to take the bet??
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Haha oh dear that cracked me up. Osborne is the man of the people, priceless. Think he has to wait behind Nigel 'Mine's a pint' Farage in the queue at the Dog and Duck though.
    Yes but doesn't this show the Labour left's total failure to connect with "ordinary" people?

    I can't stand Osborne, in fact I hate him on a personal level. He is like the archetype of a sneering, Public School cnunt. But do I trust him on the economy more than John McDonnell? Sadly yes and so does everyone else. Or most everyone.

    Farage is equally Public School and also deeply repellent as a human being. But when he talks about uncontrolled immigration and its cultural impact, especially on the white working class he is right. That is why UKIP gets so many working class votes, it is by FAR the most working class political party.

    The Labour left don't get this, they just don't understand. You only have to listen to Corbyn talking about immigration and how it is an unalloyed benefit (the establishment line of big business, ironically) to see he doesn't have a clue and never will have.
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)

    I am impressed with Bernie Sanders, and wish him well. He is ploughing a very lonely furrow. But he will NEVER become US President. I'll give you fifty pounds to your ten that doesn't happen. If you want to take the bet??
    I would be very happy to stake that he would win a general election against a Republican candidate, but I am less confident of him winning the nomination over Clinton who has fame, fortune and powerful friends on her side.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    I would be very happy to stake that he would win a general election against a Republican candidate, but I am less confident of him winning the nomination over Clinton who has fame, fortune and powerful friends on her side.
    Fair enough, no bet then!

    He might just win the Democratic nomination (although probably not) but he is too far to the left for mainstream American politics.

    I am to the right in the UK, but would support the Democrats in the US if I had the vote. That just shows how different are the two political cultures.
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Yes but doesn't this show the Labour left's total failure to connect with "ordinary" people?

    I can't stand Osborne, in fact I hate him on a personal level. He is like the archetype of a sneering, Public School cnunt. But do I trust him on the economy more than John McDonnell? Sadly yes and so does everyone else. Or most everyone.

    Farage is equally Public School and also deeply repellent as a human being. But when he talks about uncontrolled immigration and its cultural impact, especially on the white working class he is right. That is why UKIP gets so many working class votes, it is by FAR the most working class political party.

    The Labour left don't get this, they just don't understand. You only have to listen to Corbyn talking about immigration and how it is an unalloyed benefit (the establishment line of big business, ironically) to see he doesn't have a clue and never will have.
    I do not buy that George Osborne has more in touch with the average man or woman which is what that segment was implying. Neither Osborne nor McDonnell are seasoned economists and both want to govern according to ideology rather than what is objectively best.

    On immigration it is quite telling that UKIP fares worse in areas that have experienced high immigration and better in areas of low immigration. He thrives off this fear of the unknown and cannot do so where there are living contradictions of his rhetoric. Corbyn represents a densely populated constituency in north London which is about as ethnically diverse as it comes.

    Of course there are rational scepticisms of how many people Britain can practically accommodate and how we need better integration, but as ever he just takes it to an absurd extreme. Once again, public perceptions of immigration differ starkly from the reality.
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Fair enough, no bet then!

    He might just win the Democratic nomination (although probably not) but he is too far to the left for mainstream American politics.

    I am to the right in the UK, but would support the Democrats in the US if I had the vote. That just shows how different are the two political cultures.
    His positions are well in line with the mainstream of the American voter as polling repeatedly shows. If he wins the nomination like I say I am very happy to have that wager. The similarity between American and British politics is that outside interests and personality politics take more importance than substance or the issues, but the more people hear Sanders on the issues the more people want him to win.

    People have to look beyond the lazy labels of right and left and look a bit deeper at what some are proposing.
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    (Original post by Midlander)

    On immigration it is quite telling that UKIP fares worse in areas that have experienced high immigration and better in areas of low immigration. He thrives off this fear of the unknown and cannot do so where there are living contradictions of his rhetoric. Corbyn represents a densely populated constituency in north London which is about as ethnically diverse as it comes.
    There is a reason for that, which is obvious when you think about it.

    The people who vote UKIP (although not exclusively) tend to be white, BME voters are overwhelmingly Labour supporters. (The statistics on that are staggering, but I can't be bothered to look them up to link).

    So there aren't enough potential UKIP voters in areas of high immigration. They have already left, there has already been "white flight."

    The East Ed used to be full of white cockneys, apples and pears, pearly kings, ya de ya. When there was mass immigration in the sixties and seventies they moved out to places like Essex. So those seats now vote Labour (or for Lutfur Rahman!) and the Essex seats like Thurrock have a high UKIP vote.

    (Original post by Midlander)
    Of course there are rational scepticisms of how many people Britain can practically accommodate and how we need better integration, but as ever he just takes it to an absurd extreme. Once again, public perceptions of immigration differ starkly from the reality.
    Opinion poll after opinion poll puts this issue right at the top of public concerns. But neither of the two political parties have the courage to admit that they can do nothing whilst we remain part of the EU.

    The only way we can control immigration is to be no longer subject to the Free Movement of Peoples principle. Nothing else has logical coherence.
 
 
 
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