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64% of TSR want to remain in the EU... share your vote Watch

  • View Poll Results: How will you be voting in the EU referendum?
    Remain
    2,378
    56.27%
    Leave
    1,024
    24.23%
    Don't know yet
    278
    6.58%
    Won't be voting
    546
    12.92%

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You mean like we do with ALL our non EU trade, I.e. the majority? Not having a say in the regulations is not a bad thing

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    Yeah, exactly. Except that a lot of the leave side moan about how the EU infringes on our rights to do what we want with British industry. Truth is, we will have to conform to those regulations if we want to keep trading with the EU anyway, might as well have a say in them.

    If you don't mind not having a say, then that particular argument doesn't matter either way to you, which is fine too.
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    (Original post by Hirondelle127)
    Yeah, exactly. Except that a lot of the leave side moan about how the EU infringes on our rights to do what we want with British industry. Truth is, we will have to conform to those regulations if we want to keep trading with the EU anyway, might as well have a say in them.

    If you don't mind not having a say, then that particular argument doesn't matter either way to you, which is fine too.
    There is a difference, a very significant one, between 100pc of businesses 100pc of the time, and 6pc <100pc of the time; or alternatively 100pc of GDP vs 10pc of GDP

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    (Original post by jneill)
    "sit it out"

    marvellous.
    Yes, its much better than joining in. If we lost the argument and the EU swung far left or right not only mainland Europe but the UK would be victims. If we were out of the EU we could have a moderating influence from the sidelines and not need to endure extreme politics. Without diversity the world would settle into an extreme form of government for millennia because once tyranny gets a hold it is very hard to dislodge it without outside help. It is the diversity of Nations that is essential for freedom, those who invade and expand can be stopped whilst a part of the world nurtures freedom and democracy.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Lets get this striaght. You are proposing to vote Remain because you believe that the EU will never become a political union? Are you really saying that you will vote for something on the basis that you believe that the European Union is not what it is and will never fulfil the intentions of the Treaties?

    You do know that all Eurogroup countries have to submit draft National Budgets to the Eurogroup (and Commission) for approval? You know that banks in all Eurogroup countries have to submit their accounts to and are controlled by the ECB? The Eurogroup also meets before all EU Council Finance Meetings and presents a common policy.

    Setting a National Budget, setting interest rates and having a common fiscal policy seems a long way down the road to political union to me yet you say:



    They have already given up economic sovereignty!

    Stage 2 of Eurozone Union begins in 2017 and is due to be completed in 2025.

    See
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...EX:52015DC0600



    You are just making this stuff up - check the link above. 26 EU countries are fully committed to "Ever Closer Union" and are implementing it as we write. The UK cannot opt out of the rest of the EU being united. Full union is scheduled for 2025. They have already achieved most of Stage 1 of Eurozone Union. Even Greece is staying in the Eurozone in hope of full political union and hence treatment as a region of the EU.

    Are you yet another Remain supporter who hopes that some floating voter will read your comments and be deceived into a vision of the EU that has nothing to do with reality?
    I'm proposing to vote remain because you cannot guarantee a safe future, or even a better future should you vote leave. 'Leave' has very little support from the international community. It is a huge risk not only to Britain but to the rest of the European Union.

    Please don't patronise me - I understand all that you have said.

    The link you've sent is one relating to an economic and monetary union, consolidating the Euro. So?

    It is unlikely that the European Union will be in a position whereby member states will resemble 'regions' of Europe due to a closer political union in our lifetimes. It would imply some sort of federation, and though there are EU federalists, there aren't enough so that it would happen whilst this generation is around. Implying otherwise is needless scare mongering.

    And no, I'm not trying to deceive anyone into a vision of the EU that isn't reality. I know the EU has many flaws. Can you acknowledge the fact that the 'leave' campaign has hardly any plan and very little backing from other countries for once the UK leaves the EU? How on earth are you going to go about securing the economic future of this country? Who is this country even going to trade with? I'd love to know.
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    (Original post by Hirondelle127)
    The link you've sent is one relating to an economic and monetary union, consolidating the Euro. So?
    So when the Eurozone achieves political union in 2025 the UK will be going to EU Council meetings with three attendees: the UK, Denmark and the Eurogroup.

    The EU has qualified majority voting and the Eurogroup will hold 90% of the vote.

    It is unlikely that the European Union will be in a position whereby member states will resemble 'regions' of Europe due to a closer political union in our lifetimes. It would imply some sort of federation, and though there are EU federalists, there aren't enough so that it would happen whilst this generation is around. Implying otherwise is needless scare mongering.
    I thought you said you had read the link above. Stage 1 Eurozone unification will be complete by the end of this year and Stage 2, political union begins next year, scheduled for completion in 2025.

    And no, I'm not trying to deceive anyone into a vision of the EU that isn't reality. I know the EU has many flaws. Can you acknowledge the fact that the 'leave' campaign has hardly any plan and very little backing from other countries for once the UK leaves the EU? How on earth are you going to go about securing the economic future of this country? Who is this country even going to trade with? I'd love to know.
    You must know that as members of the WTO both the EU and UK are committed to trade with each other after any Brexit and that the total WTO level of tariff is only about £5bn per annum (in a total trade volume of over £200bn exports). The UK would immediately join EFTA (but not the EEA) giving it FTAs with the world in general and negotiate a Free Trade deal with the EU.

    This "who will we trade with" argument might have been relevant in the 1970s but the WTO has lowered tariffs globally. I am assuring you that the UK will get trade agreements via EFTA immediately after leaving but even if we had no trade agreements tariffs are now so low they will have little effect.

    We get huge financial advantages on leaving, such as being able to tackle the £100bn plus Current Account Deficit with the EU.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Did you even bother to read my posts? I did not deny that Article 50 applies. I pointed out repeatedly that this referendum will be taken as authorisation for events only a decade away. The pro-EU UK MPs will use a Remain vote now as authorisation for joining the Eurogroup without a further Referendum.
    Maybe they will, maybe they won't. We don't know who the government will be in a decade and we don't know what they'll do, so you are merely speculating without any degree of authority.

    One thing we seem to be hopefully clear on is that, contrary to your earlier statements, a Remain vote does not mean that the UK will be forever in the EU with no means to leave should be decide to.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    Maybe they will, maybe they won't. We don't know who the government will be in a decade and we don't know what they'll do, so you are merely speculating without any degree of authority.

    One thing we seem to be hopefully clear on is that, contrary to your earlier statements, a Remain vote does not mean that the UK will be forever in the EU with no means to leave should be decide to.
    My only "speculation" is EU documents laying out the route map for Stage 2 political union by 2025.

    Certainly if the UK leaves the EU before 2025 there is no chance of it being forever in the EU.

    If we Remain the problem arises in 2025 when EU Council Meetings will consist of the Eurogroup representative with about 90% of the vote and the UK and Denmark. If the UK does not leave it will have to join the Eurogroup or be governed by the Eurogroup without any representation. This is only 9 years from now, all UK political parties are in favour of Remain so the government of the day will undoubtedly use the 2016 referendum as approval for joining the Eurogroup.

    If the UK enters a full political union it will be governed from Brussels, not Westminster. Westminster will be relegated to being a regional government. Any vote for whether or not to hold any further referendum, after political union, will be held by the EU government. Sure, Article 50 applies but after political union, even to get a referendum we will have to ask the EU.

    So dont vote Remain now unless you want full political union with the EU.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    My only "speculation" is EU documents laying out the route map for Stage 2 political union by 2025.

    Certainly if the UK leaves the EU before 2025 there is no chance of it being forever in the EU.

    If we Remain the problem arises in 2025 when EU Council Meetings will consist of the Eurogroup representative with about 90% of the vote and the UK and Denmark. If the UK does not leave it will have to join the Eurogroup or be governed by the Eurogroup without any representation. This is only 9 years from now, all UK political parties are in favour of Remain so the government of the day will undoubtedly use the 2016 referendum as approval for joining the Eurogroup.

    If the UK enters a full political union it will be governed from Brussels, not Westminster. Westminster will be relegated to being a regional government. Any vote for whether or not to hold any further referendum, after political union, will be held by the EU government. Sure, Article 50 applies but after political union, even to get a referendum we will have to ask the EU.

    So dont vote Remain now unless you want full political union with the EU.
    So *if* your reading that Article 50 effectively disappears after 2025 is correct, I'd say the likelihood is another referendum would have to be called in 2025.

    Therefore
    You can vote Remain on Thursday without requiring full political union.

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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    My only "speculation" is EU documents laying out the route map for Stage 2 political union by 2025.
    What the Eurogroup wants to do is not that same this as what the UK government of the time will decide to do.

    Certainly if the UK leaves the EU before 2025 there is no chance of it being forever in the EU.
    Umm. And if it doesn't leave before 2025 then it also isn't compelled to remain forever.

    If we Remain the problem arises in 2025 when EU Council Meetings will consist of the Eurogroup representative with about 90% of the vote and the UK and Denmark. If the UK does not leave it will have to join the Eurogroup or be governed by the Eurogroup without any representation. This is only 9 years from now, all UK political parties are in favour of Remain so the government of the day will undoubtedly use the 2016 referendum as approval for joining the Eurogroup.
    Undoubtedly? So tell me, who will the government be at the time? Have you got a quote from them saying what they will do? No, you haven't. So please stop misrepresenting your speculation as fact.

    If the UK enters a full political union it will be governed from Brussels, not Westminster. Westminster will be relegated to being a regional government. Any vote for whether or not to hold any further referendum, after political union, will be held by the EU government. Sure, Article 50 applies but after political union, even to get a referendum we will have to ask the EU.
    If the UK, as a member of the EU, decides it wants to leave then it has the right to do so under Article 50, with or without an agreed negotiation with the EU.


    So dont vote Remain now unless you want full political union with the EU.
    Bold, nice. But a Remain vote doesn't necessarily mean that the UK will agree to full political union with the EU. After all, we aren't voting to join the Euro either. I would be shocked to find the UK now abandoning its opt-out without the consent of the UK population. Perhaps you feel it in your waters or whatever, but you don't know what future UK governments will do. If it was pre-ordained what a yet-to-be-elected government would do then why would we bother having a general election?

    Are you saying that the UK is undemocratic?
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    VOTE REMAIN

    The majority of significant political figures, economists and business owners say we should remain in the EU ....... If that's not a big enough hint to remain I don't know

    Seeing as this is a website for education why the hell would any of you believe a word that comes out of Michaels Gove's mouth after he completely messed up the new education system
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    (Original post by jneill)
    So *if* your reading that Article 50 effectively disappears after 2025 is correct, I'd say the likelihood is another referendum would have to be called in 2025.

    Therefore
    You can vote Remain on Thursday without requiring full political union.
    A second referendum in 9 years is almost unthinkable. Furthermore the Tories will never risk the political damage and Labour never wanted to give us a Referendum. The whole reason for a 2016 referendum was to avoid discussion of Eurozone political union, which begins 2017.

    If you vote Remain on Thursday you will get Political Union and no chance of escape.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    Undoubtedly? So tell me, who will the government be at the time? Have you got a quote from them saying what they will do? No, you haven't. So please stop misrepresenting your speculation as fact...

    Are you saying that the UK is undemocratic?
    Labour or Tory or SNP or Lib-dem, none of them will risk another referendum. Even this referendum was a miscalculation by Cameron to pacify his back benchers.

    No, I am saying that the whole process of the EU is undemocratic.
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    Britain is dying. Our culture is changing out of all recognition. We must control our borders or nothing worthwhile will remain. Our heritage is drawn from a combined Christian/Greco-Roman past. Our laws, our art, our science,our customs, our liberal approach to life are threatened as never before. Staying in the EU gives our future over to Brussels and its unelected officials, who are willing to allow millions to enter Europe, who do not share our heritage, who hate it in fact.

    Vote leave to preserve our way of life or regret it in years to come.
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    (Original post by Tanfoyn Ponsniff)
    Britain is dying. Our culture is changing out of all recognition. We must control our borders or nothing worthwhile will remain. Our heritage is drawn from a combined Christian/Greco-Roman past. Our laws, our art, our science,our customs, our liberal approach to life are threatened as never before. Staying in the EU gives our future over to Brussels and its unelected officials, who are willing to allow millions to enter Europe, who do not share our heritage, who hate it in fact.

    Vote leave to preserve our way of life or regret it in years to come.
    Please do tell what "significant" culture we have lost
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    An interesting and different perspective on the EU debate.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXKxHbbhQls
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    (Original post by maloni98)
    An interesting and different perspective on the EU debate.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXKxHbbhQls
    Great video for anyone undecided due to the more impartial view (I'm not saying its free of bias) as it addresses the main selling points of each campaign
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    (Original post by Tanfoyn Ponsniff)
    Britain is dying. Our culture is changing out of all recognition. We must control our borders or nothing worthwhile will remain. Our heritage is drawn from a combined Christian/Greco-Roman past. Our laws, our art, our science,our customs, our liberal approach to life are threatened as never before. Staying in the EU gives our future over to Brussels and its unelected officials, who are willing to allow millions to enter Europe, who do not share our heritage, who hate it in fact.

    Vote leave to preserve our way of life or regret it in years to come.
    Unlike actual Greeks and Romans?
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    An interesting video about the role of Turkey in European culture.
    Engaging presenter too.
    Spoiler:
    Show
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    (Original post by macromicro)
    It's scary how close this referendum is going to be due to short-sighted simpletons who wear Union Jack underwear and think we need to close the borders.

    It would be a massive step back in the progression we've made and would have to be reversed at some point in the future. The entire world is going to be one large union eventually - we need to all get used to that fact and help achieve it.
    Wow - and that is what is wrong with the remain right there. Is it short sighter to see that the EU is on the verge of collapse and is failing economically and socially ? Is it wise to flee a sinking ship or stay on until it goes down ?

    Tarring Leavers as short sighter simpletons - is that the only reason you are for Remain ? If so - it is you who is narrow minded and a simpleton !
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    So many on here for Remain are citing goverment funded scientists and economists. The bias from these individuals is great ! Surely as educated people you are taught to evaluate where the reasearch is coming from and examine the motives behind it ? You don't seem able to defend your evidence beyond stating - but government economists say.....

    Do not judge the EU on future predictions as predictions are inaccurate - judge it on the clear known facts.

    The facts are clear - the EU economy is poor and dropping. The GDP is low for what it should be considering the economic powerhouses involved in the EU. Many countries within the EU are suffering from high unemployment and financial failure - banks are failing all over Europe and bailouts are occuring often. National debt is high. Migration is high. The richer West is holding up the poorer East. The EU parliment can't agree on policies and are not held accountable for their actions. Most EU leaders are against Junker. The EU stifles small businesses. We pay in one of the highest amounts yet get the least back of any country in the EU - it is poor value for money (that includes all research funding, grants etc). The EU is no longer the common market it was established to be.

    And finally - how can you normalise so many different countries and have them operate under a single standerdised regime when each of those countries has vastly different finances, policies, systems of governance, cultures etc ? These countries can't get their people to intergrate on a small scale - so how can the EU be succesful on a larger scale ?

    The EU will fall - be it sooner or later ! It has been falling apart for a long long time and the recent dissatisfaction with the Shengan open border policies is just a sign of what is to come on a greater scale !
 
 
 
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