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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    equally you could open your eyes to the fact that some muslims are killing people by the truckload, ie in syria and iraq as we speak, and making millions homeless - many many times more signifcant in numbers, impact etc than anything any israeli operation has done.
    but muslims do not want to talk about this, or even bring up this comparison - so tell us again , who is being 'unaware'?
    I have already stated that the majority of Muslims are against this and welcome your questions. If you research well you will find that prominent Islamic scholars have spoken against ISIS (if you would like a link, I am happy to send that to you). However, in terms of the number of people killed and the duration of persecution, it undeniable that the situation in Palestine is worse.

    Furthermore, I find it unusual that the vigour in which the UK and America is criticised for the wars they are involved in and the lives they destroy under the false pretences of democracy, pale in comparison to what Muslims face for doing something that the majority of Muslims disagree with.
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    (Original post by striver17)
    I have already stated that the majority of Muslims are against this and welcome your questions. If you research well you will find that prominent Islamic scholars have spoken against ISIS (if you would like a link, I am happy to send that to you). However, in terms of the number of people killed and the duration of persecution, it undeniable that the situation in Palestine is worse.
    some 'Islamic scholars' speak against Islamic State, others actively promote them- there is no consensus on this accross the muslim world as there is on palestine. in addition no islamic country ( apart form iran) is making a particualr issue of ISISs murdering in iraq, whereas all have an opinion on israel. indeed muslims in the uk are not organising mass rallies on behalf of the 7000 odd murder victims in iraq, instead trying to turn focus on the 1000 or so in palestine in the same period. anyone with any common sense can see that is a rather perverse agenda
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    some 'Islamic scholars' speak against Islamic State, others actively promote them- there is no consensus on this accross the muslim world as there is on palestine. in addition no islamic country ( apart form iran) is making a particualr issue of ISISs murdering in iraq, whereas all have an opinion on israel. indeed muslims in the uk are not organising mass rallies on behalf of the 7000 odd murder victims in iraq, instead trying to turn focus on the 1000 or so in palestine in the same period. anyone with any common sense can see that is a rather perverse agenda
    With everything, being it good or bad, is there not a divided opinion? Since when has the world been united under a general consensus? The same applies with those in positions of respect and authority. This is the nature of society and no good can come of people assuming that all Muslims hold the same opinions with respect to ISIS.

    Although SOME Islamic countries have an opinion on Israel, certain countries are simply not doing anything about the crisis there.

    The situation in Palestine has been dire since 1948, whereas the situation in Iraq is relatively recent. Furthermore, the reason for protesting for Palestine is greatly due to the lack of accurate media coverage and support. The media has been clear and shown the killing of the people in Iraq, hence, priorities in that sense have been elsewhere.

    NB: this is a thread about Israel/Palestine, NOT about ISIS.
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    (Original post by striver17)
    With everything, being it good or bad, is there not a divided opinion? Since when has the world been united under a general consensus? The same applies with those in positions of respect and authority. This is the nature of society and no good can come of people assuming that all Muslims hold the same opinions with respect to ISIS.

    Although SOME Islamic countries have an opinion on Israel, certain countries are simply not doing anything about the crisis there.

    The situation in Palestine has been dire since 1948, whereas the situation in Iraq is relatively recent. Furthermore, the reason for protesting for Palestine is greatly due to the lack of accurate media coverage and support. The media has been clear and shown the killing of the people in Iraq, hence, priorities in that sense have been elsewhere.

    NB: this is a thread about Israel/Palestine, NOT about ISIS.
    im perfectly aware of the thread im pointing out the perverse hypocricy of the supporters of islamists and hamas in palestine and the arguments they make which cannot stand if they ignore ISIS murdering in iraq. on the simple basis of saving lives and humanitarian need- all attention should be diverted away from palestine and to iraq right now - but agan as i have said many times, most palestinian supporters have no care for saving lives- they are simply trying to fuel political agendas in the Levant region ( jsut as ISIS are doing , in iraq and syria in fact)

    and no, all islamic states state their opinion about israel without hesitation and some of them barrack the UN for action in palestine. whereas non of them do the same for action against ISIS - again showing up their political agendas. iSIS is getting major coverage, they have been even in their early stages in syria alongside other islamist rebel groups, since the start of this year, long before this current palestine conflict
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    I love when I see comparisons of the Israel/Palestine conflict to the native Americans or Australia.

    The people making the comparison don't appear to realise that in this analogy, it is the Israeli Jews who are the native Americans / aborigines, the original inhabitants of the land,
    Firstly, I should note two minor points:
    - 'Native American' and 'Aborigine' are both far broader terms than 'Jewish'. Just like everywhere, there were significant migrations and population movements in the Americas and Australia.
    - The Jews are certainly not the original (i.e. first) inhabitants of the land. There were people who lived in what is now Israel before the Jews got there. Even the Old Testament says this.

    But most importantly, unlike the Jews in what is now Israel, the Native Americans were not gone from the Americas for a longer period of time than they were ever there in the first place.

    the people with the strongest and oldest connection to that area of the world,
    The land is sacred to Muslims and Christians too. The fact that, unlike Jews, Muslims and Christians both have other sacred lands does not make Israel/Palestine less sacred to them.

    As for oldest, see above.

    whereas the Muslim conquest of Palestine only occurred in the 7th century (unsure what the justification was, other than a thirst for other people's land)
    As I said, the land is sacred to Muslims too. And of course, Islam, just like Judaism, is an Abrahamic religion - Muslims believe it to be their 'promised land' for the same reason as Jews do - they believe God promised it to Abraham as part of the Covenant.

    Perhaps more importantly, land being sacred is essentially a subjective opinion. People choose to regard land as sacred.

    Btw, the 'other people' the Muslims conquered Palestine from in the 7th Century were the Christian Byzantine Empire. There hadn't been an independent Jewish state since about 500 BCE.
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    im perfectly aware of the thread im pointing out the perverse hypocricy of the supporters of islamists and hamas in palestine and the arguments they make which cannot stand if they ignore ISIS murdering in iraq. on the simple basis of saving lives and humanitarian need- all attention should be diverted away from palestine and to iraq right now - but agan as i have said many times, most palestinian supporters have no care for saving lives- they are simply trying to fuel political agendas in the Levant region ( jsut as ISIS are doing , in iraq and syria in fact)

    and no, all islamic states state their opinion about israel without hesitation and some of them barrack the UN for action in palestine. whereas non of them do the same for action against ISIS - again showing up their political agendas. iSIS is getting major coverage, they have been even in their early stages in syria alongside other islamist rebel groups, since the start of this year, long before this current palestine conflict
    I see that there is no point discussing this with you as you are generalising the 'supporters of islamists and hamas' as ignoring ISIS and clearly don't want to read up on the actual acts of the Muslim community with regards to this issue. You fail to portray the view of the majority of the Muslims and are latching onto what is a minority opinion, and even if someone was to agree with you, you would find reason to argue.

    I sincerely hope that one day people will actually judge Islam based on ISLAM and not on the acts of certain people/countries, as I know that this is an issue globally.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Firstly, I should note two minor points:
    - 'Native American' and 'Aborigine' are both far broader terms than 'Jewish'. Just like everywhere, there were significant migrations and population movements in the Americas and Australia.
    - The Jews are certainly not the original (i.e. first) inhabitants of the land. There were people who lived in what is now Israel before the Jews got there. Even the Old Testament says this.

    But most importantly, unlike the Jews in what is now Israel, the Native Americans were not gone from the Americas for a longer period of time than they were ever there in the first place .
    equally the 'Native American' and 'Aborigine' where not 'native endemic to those lands either , they also travelled to the lands too - that has never been the point - we recognise that as being their homeland as we do jerusalem was the jews - their faith says that but more importantly, history says that too. yes they may have been other peoples orginally there, but many of those have been wiped out ( islamic conquest anyone?) And you forget israelis dont say they want to kick out all the muslims and christians from their homeland - they are happy to home them too. they jsut want a jewish state to live in in their homeland.


    there have always been jews in palestine and levant as far as history tells us- long before a state of palestine was created and indeed long beofre mohammed came up with islam. the muslims could not wipe them all out, in the same way the europeans could not wipe out all the native americans.

    (Original post by anarchism101)
    The land is sacred to Muslims and Christians too. The fact that, unlike Jews, Muslims and Christians both have other sacred lands does not make Israel/Palestine less sacred to them.


    As I said, the land is sacred to Muslims too. And of course, Islam, just like Judaism, is an Abrahamic religion - Muslims believe it to be their 'promised land' for the same reason as Jews do - they believe God promised it to Abraham as part of the Covenant. .
    that being the case, muslims should also recognise Abraham was sent to jerusalem to claim it as the homeland of his people ( the jews) . you forget the only interest arabs had with jerusalem was when the first muslim caliphates army tried to conquer it -

    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Btw, the 'other people' the Muslims conquered Palestine from in the 7th Century were the Christian Byzantine Empire. There hadn't been an independent Jewish state since about 500 BCE.
    that arguemnt holds no water - the ottomans conquered the arabs, and then british conquered the muslims , before which there had never been any independant palestinian state in last 2500 years . you could argue then by your reasoning int he free-for-all since the israelis conquered the arabs and therefore they have the right as the ones in possestion
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    (Original post by striver17)
    I see that there is no point discussing this with you as you are generalising the 'supporters of islamists and hamas' as ignoring ISIS and clearly don't want to read up on the actual acts of the Muslim community with regards to this issue. You fail to portray the view of the majority of the Muslims and are latching onto what is a minority opinion, and even if someone was to agree with you, you would find reason to argue.


    if i "fail to portray the view of the majority of the Muslims" and you do, tell me then, why is it that there have been scores of anti israel, pro palestine protests accross the uk in the last month, and not one major protest against ISIS? answer that question truthfully and i will accede to your view.


    I sincerely hope that one day people will actually judge Islam based on ISLAM and not on the acts of certain people/countries, as I know that this is an issue globally.
    you are right to say it is an issue globally - conflicts and terrorist acts like palestine and indeed iraq are going on simulataneous all over the place, at the behest of same sort of islamist groups from chechnya, kashmir, uhighur china, thailand, burma, phillipines, europe, usa, canada. nigeria, kenya, CAR, sudan, somalia, pakistan, afganistan etc etc etc-this list would literally be endless - summarised only by referring to every country that holds a significant muslim population

    over 1300 years of islamic history what we are seeing in 2014 has been echoed for over a millenia. perhaps one day you will realise that muslims have always acted in this way - and it is because of the influence of islam upon them, not in spite of it
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    you are right to say it is an issue globally - conflicts and terrorist acts like palestine and indeed iraq are going on simulataneous all over the place, at the behest of same sort of islamist groups from chechnya, kashmir, uhighur china, thailand, burma, phillipines, europe, usa, canada. nigeria, kenya, CAR, sudan, somalia, pakistan, afganistan etc etc etc-this list would literally be endless - summarised only by referring to every country that holds a significant muslim population

    over 1300 years of islamic history what we are seeing in 2014 has been echoed for over a millenia. perhaps one day you will realise that muslims have always acted in this way - and it is because of the influence of islam upon them, not in spite of it
    I could give you a list of countries where Muslims are persecuted for their beliefs, however, I think this is deviating from the top.

    What you know about Islam and the people is from the media, pick up the Qur'an and then make a judgement. In the meantime, if you have any questions about certain beliefs and practices in Islam, please free to PM me as this thread should remain focused on the topic. I would be happy to answer you queries as I am a Muslim myself, as you would have probably guessed, and can give you an insight into the views of a majority.
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    (Original post by striver17)
    I could give you a list of countries where Muslims are persecuted for their beliefs, however, I think this is deviating from the top.

    What you know about Islam and the people is from the media, pick up the Qur'an and then make a judgement. In the meantime, if you have any questions about certain beliefs and practices in Islam, please free to PM me as this thread should remain focused on the topic. I would be happy to answer you queries as I am a Muslim myself, as you would have probably guessed, and can give you an insight into the views of a majority.
    no, you could give the insight of your opinion only - which is perfectly fine. the public outcry and international response gives the insight that the muslim world is obsessed with seizing palestine on behalf of 'islam' and doesnt really care that 7000 muslims have jsut been killed in iraq ( if theyre are being killed by islamists not jews then it doesnt really fit into their agendas)

    and thanks but i dont really need you to recite the quran to me, i have read it, and also many hadiths- both of which im sure you are aware , make reference to mohammeds wars with various jewish tribes in arabia. so again reading islamic sources actually shows precedent for most modern day conflicts. the histroical record fo the early caliphs chronicle their invasion of various middle eastern lands in their attmepts to spread islam ( and oppress other religions) again exactly what ISIS are mirroring in 2014. and the calpihs eventual besieging and capture of jerusalem to establish it as an islamic domain - and that particulalr obsession has not dimmed in the last 1000 years, so much so that young muslims would rather rabidly chant about palestine than dire conflicts that are actually are far more worthy of your attention, ie as in iraq, darfur, CAR etc
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    no, you could give the insight of your opinion only - which is perfectly fine. the public outcry and international response gives the insight that the muslim world is obsessed with seizing palestine on behalf of 'islam' and doesnt really care that 7000 muslims have jsut been killed in iraq ( if theyre are being killed by islamists not jews then it doesnt really fit into their agendas)

    and thanks but i dont really need you to recite the quran to me, i have read it, and also many hadiths- both of which im sure you are aware , make reference to mohammeds wars with various jewish tribes in arabia. so again reading islamic sources actually shows precedent for most modern day conflicts. the histroical record fo the early caliphs chronicle their invasion of various middle eastern lands in their attmepts to spread islam ( and oppress other religions) again exactly what ISIS are mirroring in 2014. and the calpihs eventual besieging and capture of jerusalem to establish it as an islamic domain - and that particulalr obsession has not dimmed in the last 1000 years, so much so that young muslims would rather rabidly chant about palestine than dire conflicts that are actually are far more worthy of your attention, ie as in iraq, darfur, CAR etc
    I'm sorry that you don't see Islam and Muslims for what we really stand for and promote. I don't think this conversation needs to go further because what the Qur'an and the Sunnah states is greater than the actions of few, and far greater than certain peoples ignorance.

    I wish you all the best but i would prefer to end this discussion before it escalates and becomes more infuriating and argumentative.
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    Israelis Protesting AGAINST ceasefire.

    http://m.aljazeera.com/story/201481543016447317

    Yes, you read that right, Israelis are protesting against the ceasefire. That shows you the typical bloodthirsty mentality of the average Zionist.
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    Well, Hamas will obviously violate it before long anyway.
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    (Original post by Skip_Snip)
    Well, Hamas will obviously violate it before long anyway.
    You're right, Palestinians should just sit there and put up with the illegal occupation of their land as Israel continues announcing new illegal settlements.
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    I don't care which map you use so long as it is reliable. There are also figures I presented which are more useful than looking at a map and guessing. As I have said before quite clearly - present whatever evidence you want.
    Thank you.

    I have concluded the preliminary stage of the requested research project and I will share with you my findings below. However, in the interests of impartiality and due diligence, I shall first list my process and then present my findings (which are mostly visual in nature).

    Title: Gaza's "empty spaces"...

    List of sources used:

    a) Google Maps (For Israel and Gaza)
    b) How Far it is between (To calculate distances)
    d) HAMAS Arsenal (To examine capabilities and estimate weapons)
    c) Radius around a point (To calculate the ranges of the various rockets)

    Programs Used:

    Chrome (To access the net)
    Paint (For some rudimentary drawings)

    Steps:

    a) Obtain the latest image of Gaza and Israel (both map and terrain)

    b) Copy and Paste Print screened Image into Paint and start highlighting areas which are populated (Effort reproduced below):

    RED - Densely populated areas (Urban)
    ORANGE - A little less populated area ("suburbs" one might say)
    PURPLE - Israeli imposed buffer zone (up to 1KM)*
    BLUE - Israeli buffer zone during Op PE (2014 - Up to 3KM)
    *

    *To work this out, I calculated the distance between Beit Lahiya and Beit Hanun (approx 3KM) and calculated half the distance betwwen Bureij and Al Maghazi (approx 1KM) - Distance Scales are top left.



    Finding - There are only one or two places (essentially the uncoloured parts which illustrates the not heavily populated areas). The first being between Nusreiyat and Wahsh and the second being Deir al Salah and Rafah, towards the east of Khan Yunis.

    c) Copy and Paste the Israeli map (see below) showing the areas which are not populated.

    RED - NOT populated



    Finding - As one can see, the uncoloured areas indicate population density as one might expect around Bersheba, Sderot, Ashdod, Tel Aviv and Ashkelon.


    d) Then one has to get the array of rocket arsenal that Al Qassam possesses which is reproduced below:


    Finding - For ease of data entry, I split the above rockets into 4 groups, taking the uppermost range of the capability of the rocket in the group:

    1) Qassams (4KM - 16KM)
    2) Grad + W1SE (18KM - 40KM)
    3) Fajr (75KM)
    4) M302 (150KM)

    e) I then applied the ranges above, using the Radius map finder, from the recommended firing places and my results are produced below.


    Range of M302 (150KM) (Rocket Count = 40-80):




    Finding - This can hit the outskirts of Haifa, Amman and Petra.


    Range of Fajr (75KM) (Rocket Count = A couple hundred):




    Finding - This rocket can hit the outskirts of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.


    Range of Grad and W1SE (18KM-40KM) (Rocket Count = Less than 1,000):




    Finding - This brings into range, the outskirts of Ashdod and Bersheba.


    Range of Qassam rockets (4KM-16KM) (Rocket Count = Thousands):




    Finding - The outskirts of Sderot and EnHabsor can be a reasonable target.



    f) Concluding remarks:

    Using the data above, we can reasonably conclude that your proposal that Al Qassam should fire rockets from those areas which are not populated is a ridiculous idea as:

    1) The land from which to fire rockets is effectively two places (both in Western Gaza and away from the border of Israel).

    2) If they do manage to fire rockets from there, it will be inefficient as they cannot hit anything (it will only hit the outskirts of the targets).

    3) Even if they were to waste a precious M302 on Sderot, it will probably be knocked down by the Iron Dome.



    Having evaluated the above and taken into consideration the evidence presented above, it seems that the best place from which to fire rockets is from civilian populated areas as it would be:

    1) Efficient
    2) Economical
    3) Feasible.



    Whether this is just a coincidence or deliberately engineered is a matter of debate...

    No doubt you will wish to take issue with a couple of statements presented here, but take your time, chew it over and get back to me with your critique. As I have indicated, I would be more than happy to amend my conclusions if there are any errors.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
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    I cannot see the map you coloured in and without it and I cannot fully evaluate your valiant efforts to justify Hamas war crimes
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    I cannot see the map you coloured in and without it and I cannot fully evaluate your valiant efforts to justify Hamas war crimes
    That is indeed a mystery as it is clearly appearing on my screen.

    Maybe you need to replace your computer or use a different browser? Try Chrome or Aurora.

    If it still doesn't work, I'll try PM'ing the images to you and if that still doesn't work, then I'll email the messages (you can use a dummy email account).

    Let's see how this goes...
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    (Original post by broscience123)
    Israelis Protesting AGAINST ceasefire.

    http://m.aljazeera.com/story/201481543016447317

    Yes, you read that right, Israelis are protesting against the ceasefire. That shows you the typical bloodthirsty mentality of the average Zionist.
    Presumably they would just like the army to destroy Hamas as they are scared a terrorist will pop up through their kitchen floor...
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    That is indeed a mystery as it is clearly appearing on my screen.

    Maybe you need to replace your computer or use a different browser? Try Chrome or Aurora.

    If it still doesn't work, I'll try PM'ing the images to you and if that still doesn't work, then I'll email the messages (you can use a dummy email account).

    Let's see how this goes...
    Tried in Chrome. Looks like you may have attached an image with a URL from your email inbox meaning that only you can see the images. Unless others in this thread can see them I think you probably did something wrong rather there being a problem on my end.

    Either way, feel free to send them via PM or edit your original post to attach them and upload them.
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    equally the 'Native American' and 'Aborigine' where not 'native endemic to those lands either , they also travelled to the lands too - that has never been the point - we recognise that as being their homeland as we do jerusalem was the jews
    There are no separate states for Native Americans or Aborigines, nor is there any significant call for them.

    - their faith says that but more importantly, history says that too
    How exactly does history say it?

    yes they may have been other peoples orginally there, but many of those have been wiped out ( islamic conquest anyone?)
    Not really getting what you're saying here; are you saying that the people who lived in Canaan (as it was then) before the Jews arrived were wiped out by the Muslim conquest?

    And you forget israelis dont say they want to kick out all the muslims and christians from their homeland
    No, not all the Muslims and Christians - only enough of them to guarantee a large Jewish demographic majority.

    - they are happy to home them too. they jsut want a jewish state to live in in their homeland.
    As noted above, the Native Americans and Aborigines do not have a separate state, yet still live in their homeland.

    Furthermore, the idea of a Jewish state inherently restricts the right of non-Jews to live there, as it necessitates that Jews must be in the majority.

    there have always been jews in palestine and levant as far as history tells us
    The Jews first came to what is now Israel/Palestine in about 1300-1200 BCE. As noted above, there were people there before them. Therefore, history tells us that there have not always been Jews in Palestine.

    - long before a state of palestine was created and indeed long beofre mohammed came up with islam.
    There were Arabs in the Levant long before Islam existed too, what's your point?

    the muslims could not wipe them all out, in the same way the europeans could not wipe out all the native americans.
    The Muslims did not attempt to wipe them all out. Most of the Jews were forced out by the Romans before the Muslims even got there. Indeed, when the Muslims took over the region the Jewish communities began to grow and prosper for the first time in centuries (for example, the Muslims allowed - even encouraged - the Jews to live in Jerusalem again - something the Romans had banned for 500 years).

    that being the case, muslims should also recognise Abraham was sent to jerusalem to claim it as the homeland of his people ( the jews) . you forget the only interest arabs had with jerusalem was when the first muslim caliphates army tried to conquer it -
    But Muslims do not consider the Jews to be Abraham's people - they consider themselves to be Abraham's people. From their point of view, the Jews departed from the Covenant when they did not accept first Jesus and then Mohammed as prophets.

    Also you're conflating Muslims and Arabs. Muslims have considered Jerusalem to be sacred for nearly as long as Islam has existed.

    that arguemnt holds no water - the ottomans conquered the arabs, and then british conquered the muslims , before which there had never been any independant palestinian state in last 2500 years . you could argue then by your reasoning int he free-for-all since the israelis conquered the arabs and therefore they have the right as the ones in possestion
    I wasn't making an argument for legitimacy of any particular state, I was responding to the previous poster saying that the Muslim conquest was the Muslims "taking other people's land", and implying that the 'other people" in question were the Jews - yet at the time of the conquest the Jews were neither the political controllers nor the demographic majority of the area.
 
 
 
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