Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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Good bloke
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#5401
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#5401
(Original post by Choo.choo)
They are absolutely mad to reject independence. Why would you want to stop your own country that you care so much from self-determination?
More to the point, why would you want to live in a country when you think most of its inhabitants are mad? Presumably you will emigrate after Scots have demonstrated to you they are mainly mad?
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Choo.choo
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#5402
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#5402
(Original post by Good bloke)
More to the point, why would you want to live in a country when you think most of its inhabitants are mad? Presumably you will emigrate after Scots have demonstrated to you they are mainly mad?
I mean that they are making a poor decision. Not they are "mad mentally" as in they are nuts.
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Libertatem
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#5403
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#5403
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Attachment 264431
There have been a few (and I mean, very few) polls that have won in support for independence. Not every poll has been won in support for the union, but I do concede that majority have.
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L i b
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#5404
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#5404
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Taking benefits (or money) away from people that need help is not attacking the poor? Seriously?
Welfare reform is there to get people into work, noting that the most effective way out of poverty - in fact, the most effective way of doing almost everything from improving health to increasing educational attainment of children - is to bring about employment. We've had a great deal of problems with worklessness in this country, and it's something that we've needed to address for a long time.

From speaking to voters, the perversity of the welfare system was most keenly noticed amongst the working class: people who did work, but realised there were incentives not to, or saw their neighbours living on out-of-work disability benefits when they were perfectly physically capable of holding down a job.

There is nothing worse for people who can work than to be out of work. It is psychologically damaging, excludes them from society and leads to a whole manner of problems from crime to substance abuse. I want rather more for people in this country than that.

What about the tax cut offered to millionaires by the Tories, which Ed Balls today announced he would reverse if Labour win next year?
Foolish move by Ed Balls. Not only do we have lower taxes under the 45p rate, we also have an increased tax-take from it. Win-win. Also you don't have to be a millionaire to get taxed at the 45p rate.
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MatureStudent36
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#5405
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#5405
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Taking benefits (or money) away from people that need help is not attacking the poor? Seriously?
What about the tax cut offered to millionaires by the Tories, which Ed Balls today announced he would reverse if Labour win next year?
Tax rate under labour for millionaires was 40%. Later upped to 50% when they knew they weren't going to get back into power and in the full knowledge that whoever came into power would have to lower it. Research the Laffer curve.

Top tax rate for millionaires under the present givernment is 45%. The SNP have promised to lower it even further.

The present givernment have lowered tax liabilities for lower income families.
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MatureStudent36
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#5406
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#5406
(Original post by Libertatem)
There have been a few (and I mean, very few) polls that have won in support for independence. Not every poll has been won in support for the union, but I do concede that majority have.
Only one poll showed support. It was commissioned by the SNP and conducted by panelbase in August 2013. Even the SNP have distanced themselves from it as it was so skewed and biased that not even they were able to openly support it.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott...ferendum,_2014

One factor that also needs to be taken into account when using panelbase polls is that its an online poll that you have to register to take part in. Panelbase has had to stop new people registering as they have realised that the cyberNat community were coordinating efforts to derail a truthful outcome.

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/...olls-1-3080830
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MatureStudent36
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#5407
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#5407
(Original post by Choo.choo)
I mean that they are making a poor decision. Not they are "mad mentally" as in they are nuts.
You have to ask yourself the question if you hold a
Minority viewpoint about whether or not your opinion is actually at fault.

Roll on September. I'm just wondering what you'll do in the event of a no vote. How will you cope with the realisation that the majority of us don't share your viewpoints.
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Choo.choo
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#5408
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#5408
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
You have to ask yourself the question if you hold a
Minority viewpoint about whether or not your opinion is actually at fault.

Roll on September. I'm just wondering what you'll do in the event of a no vote. How will you cope with the realisation that the majority of us don't share your viewpoints.
Not much you can do. Everyone will have to accept the outcome of the referendum.
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FinalMH
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#5409
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#5409
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Really? Denmark and the UK don't have the euro currency. Why were they not forced to join?
:rolleyes: Plain ignorance here. The current treaty of the EU requires any new member state to commit to joining the Euro. You won't be forced to join, but at some point in Scotland's future you will have the euro.
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Choo.choo
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#5410
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#5410
(Original post by FinalMH)
:rolleyes: Plain ignorance here. The current treaty of the EU requires any new member state to commit to joining the Euro. You won't be forced to join, but at some point in Scotland's future you will have the euro.
You are entitled to your opinion, but your assertion is just absolute nonsense.
A future, independent Scotland will be able to adopt its own currency - that is, whatever currency it chooses. We do not have to choose a currency that someone tells an independent Scotland to join. That is not how it works.
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Choo.choo
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#5411
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#5411
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Roll on September. I'm just wondering what you'll do in the event of a no vote. How will you cope with the realisation that the majority of us don't share your viewpoints.
How about keep campaigning for independence?
I don't think the SNP will give up on their ambition if they lose the referendum.
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Old_Simon
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#5412
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#5412
Personally I think we would be well shot of Scotland. They have done nothing but whinge for nearly two millenia. Even the Romans had the sense not to occupy the place. What concerns me is that our treasury is still going to be under writing their national debt. That is not true independence.
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MatureStudent36
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#5413
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#5413
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Not much you can do. Everyone will have to accept the outcome of the referendum.
Yet you still make claims of 'when we vote yes.'

It's good to see that you're starting to accept reality. You may actually start to realise that claims being made by the SNP are only desired outcomes. Third parties will have inputs into those. Such as claims of currency unions, EU opt outs being continued wtc are desired outcomes. Not facts.
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MatureStudent36
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#5414
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#5414
(Original post by Choo.choo)
How about keep campaigning for independence?
I don't think the SNP will give up on their ambition if they lose the referendum.
I don't doubt they will. But when opinion polls show no desire for it, if a no vote is returned in September which is most likely to be the outcome, how do they continue to campaign for it when the evidence says they won't get it.
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L i b
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#5415
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#5415
(Original post by Choo.choo)
We do not have to choose a currency that someone tells an independent Scotland to join. That is not how it works.
Entirely correct, but you may very well not get into the European Union then. No one can force a currency on a state, but you have to realise actions have consequences.
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Choo.choo
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#5416
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#5416
(Original post by L i b)
Entirely correct, but you may very well not get into the European Union then. No one can force a currency on a state, but you have to realise actions have consequences.
For heaven's sake, I'll say it again: "The UK and Denmark are members of the European Union, and they were not forced to join the euro." Stop this silly scaremongering, it is pointless.
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FinalMH
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#5417
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#5417
(Original post by Choo.choo)
For heaven's sake, I'll say it again: "The UK and Denmark are members of the European Union, and they were not forced to join the euro." Stop this silly scaremongering, it is pointless.
"The UK and Denmark are members of the European Union, and they were not forced to join the euro." Whilst again we are not arguing with this statement. As you should be aware these opt-outs where negotiated in the treaty of Maastricht (enshrined in the treaty) in 1993. No country which has applied for membership of the EU has been allowed to keep their currency since the treaty.

A legal path for Scotland to keep the opt-out for currency is if it is allowed to keep all current opt-outs of the United Kingdom, which is doubtful. (28 Members states agreeing to that?) Another method would be a new treaty, which most likely won't go in Scotland favor.

:mad: One thing I don't like about this debate, is when you pose any question to the nationalist they just jump to this "scaremongering". Also just to clarify I am not saying Scotland will have the euro straight away, but at some point in time, scotland will have the euro.

Why is it that nationalist believe everything will be perfect when 2016 comes lol
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Midlander
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#5418
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#5418
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I don't doubt they will. But when opinion polls show no desire for it, if a no vote is returned in September which is most likely to be the outcome, how do they continue to campaign for it when the evidence says they won't get it.
They do what Choo Choo does and insult those who disagree.


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Midlander
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#5419
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#5419
(Original post by Old_Simon)
Personally I think we would be well shot of Scotland. They have done nothing but whinge for nearly two millenia. Even the Romans had the sense not to occupy the place. What concerns me is that our treasury is still going to be under writing their national debt. That is not true independence.
Legend.


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Good bloke
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#5420
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#5420
(Original post by Choo.choo)
How about keep campaigning for independence?
I don't think the SNP will give up on their ambition if they lose the referendum.
The debate will be over for at least a generation. This is not the sort of issue that will be allowed to fester on a continuing basis, nor one that the people of Scotland are likely to change their minds on quickly.
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