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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    Tried in Chrome. Looks like you may have attached an image with a URL from your email inbox meaning that only you can see the images. Unless others in this thread can see them I think you probably did something wrong rather there being a problem on my end.

    Either way, feel free to send them via PM or edit your original post to attach them and upload them.
    Okay. I broke the links and rerouted them through the images stored on my computer. It should all be working now.
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    (Original post by momosteiny)
    Presumably they would just like the army to destroy Hamas as they are scared a terrorist will pop up through their kitchen floor...
    In the same way average Palestinians want a truce because Israeli rockets are actually coming through their kitchen rooves?
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    Can somebody, preferably of Independent mind, clarify the Hamas position on the status of Israel?

    I had been led to believe that their charter called for the destruction of Israel but from what I can gather the actual charter states that it is not up to Hamas but to the Palestinian people to either recognise or deny Israel. That is- a referendum of the Palestinian people would have to be held to determine the issue, presumably. How very democratic they are for a supposed bunch of terrorists... Anyway, anyone care to enlighten me?
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    (Original post by DK_Tipp)
    Can somebody, preferably of Independent mind, clarify the Hamas position on the status of Israel?
    Article Seven of the Hamas Charter approvingly quotes a religious text that predicts the murder of all Jews, everywhere. It says that "even the trees" they are hiding behind will call out to the faithful "Here are the Jews! Get them!"
    I had been led to believe that their charter called for the destruction of Israel but from what I can gather the actual charter states that it is not up to Hamas but to the Palestinian people to either recognise or deny Israel.
    That's not for the Palestinian people to decide. Israel exists. That is a "fact on the ground". The real question is "Will Palestine exist?". That question remains to be seen; if Hamas continues their ways, that looks increasingly unlikely in the short to medium term.
    How very democratic they are for a supposed bunch of terrorists... Anyway, anyone care to enlighten me?
    If they are so democratic, why haven't they held an election since 2006? Palestinian law requires an election every four years. It doesn't seem particularly democratic to me to simply abolish elections when they become inconvenient
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    That's not for the Palestinian people to decide. Israel exists. That is a "fact on the ground".
    Whether it "exists" or not isn't really relevant to recognition. Armenia is recognised by the UN, but even so, Pakistan doesn't recognise it. Only 83% of UN members recognise Israel. As of 27/9/13 69.4% of UN members recognise the State of Palestine (basically just being Israel, North America and Western Europe that don't). And the current existence of Israel is only temporary, nations rise and fall.
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    Article Seven of the Hamas Charter approvingly quotes a religious text that predicts the murder of all Jews, everywhere. It says that "even the trees" they are hiding behind will call out to the faithful "Here are the Jews! Get them!"
    Article 7 merely contains a prophecy that Jews will die. Whether it will be murder or during the course of a war remains to be seen.

    That's not for the Palestinian people to decide. Israel exists. That is a "fact on the ground". The real question is "Will Palestine exist?". That question remains to be seen; if Hamas continues their ways, that looks increasingly unlikely in the short to medium term.
    Even without HAMAS, a Palestinian state would not exist.

    If they are so democratic, why haven't they held an election since 2006? Palestinian law requires an election every four years. It doesn't seem particularly democratic to me to simply abolish elections when they become inconvenient
    Due to the attempted coup by Fatah, which had the approval or tacit understanding by the Israeli's/Americans, elections have been unable to be held. The security situation is also very fragile.

    However, the 2014 unity agreement between HAMAS and Fatah allowed 6 months, from April 2014, to hold legislative elections.

    Israel, in the fist instance, dismissed this as the "usual" in Palestinian politics but come June, where Israel suddenly realised that the Palestinians were serious, they invaded Gaza, putting to rest any hopes of the democratic process being observed in the near future.

    It suits Israel to stop the Palestinians from ever holding elections ever again...
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Whether it "exists" or not isn't really relevant to recognition
    And ultimately, the recognition of the Palestinian people is irrelevant to whether Israel continues to exist. Its existence is a fact. The only link and relevance is the failure of the Palestinian people to recognise Israel's right to exist will mean their own failuire to attain a state. It really is as simple as that.
    Armenia is recognised by the UN, but even so, Pakistan doesn't recognise it.
    Who cares whether Pakistan recognises Armenia? Pakistan doesn't recognise Armenia, but they did recognise the Taliban government. Where are they now?
    Only 83% of UN members recognise Israel.
    Right. The vast majority of the world's nation-states recognise Israel. And again, a country's failure to recognise it is irrelevant to the fact that Israel exists. It's not going anywhere/
    As of 27/9/13 69.4% of UN members recognise the State of Palestine
    Isn't is interesting that so many of those countries that recognise Palestine as a state also recognise Israel?
    And the current existence of Israel is only temporary, nations rise and fall.
    This is what in the real world is called wishful thinking, or faith-based thinking. That might better read as, "I so badly want Israel not to exist, that I choose to believe that it won't exist in future". That's quite irrelevant, I'm afraid. In fact, more relevant than your own wishful thinking is the fact that the Palestinian Authority accepts Israel's existence and its right to exist.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Article 7 merely contains a prophecy that Jews will die. Whether it will be murder or during the course of a war remains to be seen.
    What an absolutely fascinating statement on your part.
    Due to the attempted coup by Fatah, which had the approval or tacit understanding by the Israeli's/Americans, elections have been unable to be held.
    Isn't that what dictators always say? Elections can't be held because of the security situation
    However, the 2014 unity agreement between HAMAS and Fatah allowed 6 months, from April 2014, to hold legislative elections.
    Better late than never. Let's see if they actually happen, and what happens in the aftermath. I really do hope the elections go ahead, the Palestinian people deserve no less and they have been kept waiting for far too long by their leaders.
    where Israel suddenly realised that the Palestinians were serious, they invaded Gaza
    Operation Protective Edge started in July. And I am quite sure that the start of that military campaign was preceded by a massive increase in Palestinian rockets coming from Gaza.
    It suits Israel to stop the Palestinians from ever holding elections ever again...
    And the Palestinians oblige them by.... not holding elections.
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    What an absolutely fascinating statement on your part.
    It was a correction of your statements.

    Isn't that what dictators always say? Elections can't be held because of the security situation
    Oh, dictators do hold elections or didn't you realise that. I think one dictator got 99.7% of the vote. It was also rumoured that the numbers of votes cast was a few million more than the entire population of the country.

    Funny things. elections are.

    Better late than never. Let's see if they actually happen, and what happens in the aftermath. I really do hope the elections go ahead, the Palestinian people deserve no less and they have been kept waiting for far too long by their leaders.
    The elections will not go ahead if Israel continues to interfere in Palestinian politics and tries their dirty tricks to break the unity government.

    Operation Protective Edge started in July. And I am quite sure that the start of that military campaign was preceded by a massive increase in Palestinian rockets coming from Gaza.
    You can't just go and invade Gaza. Israel won't have a leg to stand on.

    What they do, is use a pretext, invite increased rocket fire and use that to justify their invasion and occupations.

    Just one tiny hitch, it seems to have spectacularly backfired on them.

    And the Palestinians oblige them by.... not holding elections.
    The Palestinians have no choice. What choice do you have if your life is "micro-managed"?
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    And ultimately, the recognition of the Palestinian people is irrelevant to whether Israel continues to exist. Its existence is a fact. The only link and relevance is the failure of the Palestinian people to recognise Israel's right to exist will mean their own failuire to attain a state. It really is as simple as that.
    And if Palestine recognises Israel suddenly they will be given member status of the UN? Given that Obama has openly said he will have the US veto any attempt Palestine makes to become a member of the UN when it goes to the security council, and given that the US seems rather hell bent on making sure that Palestine ceases to exist given that Israel is infallible and they don't seem to want Palestine to exist either, are you honestly blaming the Palestinian civilians?

    Who cares whether Pakistan recognises Armenia? Pakistan doesn't recognise Armenia, but they did recognise the Taliban government. Where are they now?
    Well, you seem to be giving the impression that if the UN recognises a country then all other countries, whether recognised by the UN or not, should also recognise their existence. After all, it's not the choice of the people of Palestine to chose whether they recognise Israel or not. Clearly, given the context, this means that they MUST recognise them because the UN does.

    Right. The vast majority of the world's nation-states recognise Israel. And again, a country's failure to recognise it is irrelevant to the fact that Israel exists. It's not going anywhere/ Isn't is interesting that so many of those countries that recognise Palestine as a state also recognise Israel?
    So, because the majority of the world recognise Israel, Israel "exists". However, this logic doesn't apply to Palestine?

    This is what in the real world is called wishful thinking, or faith-based thinking. That might better read as, "I so badly want Israel not to exist, that I choose to believe that it won't exist in future". That's quite irrelevant, I'm afraid. In fact, more relevant than your own wishful thinking is the fact that the Palestinian Authority accepts Israel's existence and its right to exist.
    So, explain to me how the existence of Israel now PROVES that it will exist forevermore. Does the USSR still exist? Yugoslavia? East Germany? West Germany? Grand Dutch of Finland? Holy Roman Empire? Gozo? Papal States? Kingdom of England? Tsardom of Russia? Cherokee Nation? Republic of Texas? Republic of Hawaii? Kingdom of Sarawak? Gold Coast? Jolof Empire? Zulu Kingdom? Sultanate of Sulu? Ottoman Empire? Or a much more substantial list (although still incomplete) of Former Sovereign States can be found here.
    As I said, Israel may exist now, probably won't in 1000 years, I wouldn't be surprised if it's gone within a few centuries.
    Wikipedia gives Turkey as the oldest country (based on last subordination), with the last subordination being in 1243. Morocco being the longest continually existing state (that is currently recognised by the UN), having initially formed in 789AD.


    I'm more inclined to say that you wanting Israel to exist forevermore is wishful thinking, whereas my expecting Israel to cease existing in a few centuries is the product of rational thought.

    p.s. I thought the person asking the question wanted a relatively impartial opinion?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Okay. I broke the links and rerouted them through the images stored on my computer. It should all be working now.
    Yes they are visible now.

    I'm afraid I think you wasted your efforts though because you have not addressed the original point. If you remember, the original question was:

    "Why are there rocket sites in the middle of cities"

    to which you replied:

    "Where else shall they put them?"

    So the question is whether or not there are places other than cities and heavily populated areas to store and fire their rockets. The question was not whether or not those other places allow the most effective use of those weapons but whether or not they are available.

    I proved that at least 28% of the Gaza Strip and probably much closer to 75% is not heavily populated - not even built up - and can be used to store and fire rockets. Your response does not address this point at all.

    I conclude therefore that we are both in agreement that there is, in fact, plenty of physical space where Hamas could store and fire their rockets, away from heavily populated areas.

    If we wish to address the question of why Hamas and other terrorist organisations choose not to use those areas but prefer using cities and other heavily populated areas then this is a trivial question to answer. Simply put - if rockets were stored and fired from open space away from civilians then Israel would have no problem or hesitation destroying them very quickly, rendering the terrorist groups unable to fire their rockets. They thus prefer to use heavily populated areas because they know that the presence of so many civilians hampers Israel's efforts to destroy rocket stockpiles and launch sites. In other words, they use the civilian population to shield and protect their rockets and launch sites.
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    (Original post by DK_Tipp)
    In the same way average Palestinians want a truce because Israeli rockets are actually coming through their kitchen rooves?
    I think that most Israelis believe that any truce with Hamas is just Hamas taking time out to prepare for the next war. There were rumours that Hamas had planned a big capturing attempt on the Jewish new year but I don't know if that's true.
    It was also reported on some Israeli news sites that al qassam brigades made a statement to that effect (just a preparation for next war). Again, I haven't seen the statement so I don't know if it is true.
    In short, Israelis fear a truce allowing Hamas to build up a whole new array of tunnels into Israel which the only way of stopping is the destruction of Hamas. Assuming you are right that Palestinians want a truce (which I don't really know how you know that) then I would point out that from their perspective they either don't think Israel would break it or just think that they'd have the same threat, whether at war or not and thus may as well live in their homes...
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    As I said, Israel may exist now, probably won't in 1000 years, I wouldn't be surprised if it's gone within a few centuries.

    I'm more inclined to say that you wanting Israel to exist forevermore is wishful thinking, whereas my expecting Israel to cease existing in a few centuries is the product of rational thought.
    Many would have said that about the Jews 2500 years ago...
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    I accept your capitulation graciously.

    I sincerely look forward to our next encounter....
    Why can't Hamas store and fire rockets from less densely populated areas and away from important social infrastructure such as schools? This is a genuine question.

    Surely the situation would be simplified by this course of action as Israeli bombardment would cause less civilian impact. Have Hamas station their rockets in sparsely and desolate locations then Israeli fire would be concentrated at these coordinates. It's a win win situation as Hamas and Israel both have less blood on their hands. So as I stated why do Hamas not do this, I am curious?
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    (Original post by momosteiny)
    Many would have said that about the Jews 2500 years ago...
    Since when was "Jews" a state, or for that matter at serious risk of total genocide?
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    (Original post by MAESTRO265)
    Why can't Hamas store and fire rockets from less densely populated areas and away from important social infrastructure such as schools? This is a genuine question.
    I refer you to the little research I undertook at the behest of UniofLife.

    Surely the situation would be simplified by this course of action as Israeli bombardment would cause less civilian impact. Have Hamas station their rockets in sparsely and desolate locations then Israeli fire would be concentrated at these coordinates. It's a win win situation as Hamas and Israel both have less blood on their hands. So as I stated why do Hamas not do this, I am curious?
    If Israel are so concerned about the "civilian impact", then they wouldn't bomb the Gazans in the first place.

    The Israeli's are only complaining, whining and throwing tantrums because HAMAS are "not making it easy for them". I mean, some naiive young person suggested the other day, that HAMAS should just line up in a row and have Israel bomb them. To that, I stated HAMAS should just commit suicide as it'll probably save on the fuel that Israel would need in their planes to bomb HAMAS.


    The Settler State is a whining, childish, pathetic little country who is only throwing a tantrum because HAMAS are making it harder for them and Israel is coming worse off.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Since when was "Jews" a state, or for that matter at serious risk of total genocide?
    I'm not 100 percent sure how the Jews not being a state is really connected to my point.
    Jews have been under attack both spiritually and physically for a ridiculous length of time and its pretty amazing that they are still here.
    My point was that I am not sure if you can apply 'rational' assumptions to destruction of a nation or state.
    I do apologise though, as I have no idea if my point has any bearing at all on your previous conversation, I just wanted to point that out.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    I refer you to the little research I undertook at the behest of UniofLife.



    If Israel are so concerned about the "civilian impact", then they wouldn't bomb the Gazans in the first place.

    The Israeli's are only complaining, whining and throwing tantrums because HAMAS are "not making it easy for them". I mean, some naiive young person suggested the other day, that HAMAS should just line up in a row and have Israel bomb them. To that, I stated HAMAS should just commit suicide as it'll probably save on the fuel that Israel would need in their planes to bomb HAMAS.


    The Settler State is a whining, childish, pathetic little country who is only throwing a tantrum because HAMAS are making it harder for them and Israel is coming worse off.
    I must say that was a very thorough post, I couldn't ask for more but instead of taking your word for it I will do some of my own digging but nonetheless not a bad bit of research there.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elect...ocal_elections
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pales...lections,_2010
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pales...lections,_2012

    So you came to the conclusion it would not be economical or feasible and overall the practicalities of having the rockets stationed at these unpopulated sites would be illogical considering the motives of Hamas. So it leaves Hamas with limited options. Considering the people of Palestine voted them in the first term(I must add the 2010 and 2012 elections were strangely canceled by Hamas authorities seems a little odd to me if I may say so myself, I'll link in some wiki sources or any media related sources at your request) surely Hamas has a moral duty to protect its citizens at all costs. If they know their rockets will not make a sufficient impact on the Israeli offensive why risk the lives of their citizens. Hamas could of been on the moral high ground but decided not to.


    Israel's primary concern is the impact of their civilians foremost (as any other country would do) and so instead of sitting back defending against rockets for months and if not years they decided to destroy rocket bases. They have a moral duty to protect their citizens at all costs.

    I do not understand why you suggest Israel are behaving in such a manner. "Whining" and "childish" are hardly representative of the Israeli government or IDF. Whatever we think of them the Israeli government is an intellectual and professional authority(hate them or like them you can not compare them to kids, I might as well compare Hamas to sheep but no point throwing inaccurate insults around). They have foreign and Home Secretaries as we do, they have ministers in the business, agricultural and environmental sectors as we do. They also have a collection of diplomats who represent them on the world stage. I do not believe they are moaning and think they are carrying out the offensive with the intention of doing so whether it is wrong or right.
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    Same tricks they did with Jenin etc.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfCJ23umcBI
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    (Original post by MAESTRO265)
    I must say that was a very thorough post, I couldn't ask for more but instead of taking your word for it I will do some of my own digging but nonetheless not a bad bit of research there.
    Thank you. I appreciate you reading through that post and your willingness to critique it.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elect...ocal_elections
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pales...lections,_2010
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pales...lections,_2012

    So you came to the conclusion it would not be economical or feasible and overall the practicalities of having the rockets stationed at these unpopulated sites would be illogical considering the motives of Hamas. So it leaves Hamas with limited options. Considering the people of Palestine voted them in the first term(I must add the 2010 and 2012 elections were strangely canceled by Hamas authorities seems a little odd to me if I may say so myself, I'll link in some wiki sources or any media related sources at your request) surely Hamas has a moral duty to protect its citizens at all costs. If they know their rockets will not make a sufficient impact on the Israeli offensive why risk the lives of their citizens. Hamas could of been on the moral high ground but decided not to.
    I didn't want to split your post off into little chunks as it is intertwined so I'll make a list:

    a) Economical, infeasible, impractical - HAMAS, or more accurately, the Palestinians as a whole rely have finite resources which they themselves do not control.

    In fact, the Settler State (SS from here on in) withholds tax receipts from the Palestinians as a punishment for forming a reconciliation agreement which intended to hold elections which have been postponed for a number of years.

    As such, the funding is limited and in such a circumstance, it is economical, feasible and practical to want to get the most out of the little funds that you are in possession of (efficiency). That is the reason why it makes absolutely no sense for "resistance groups" in Gaza to spend huge amounts of money launching a 150KM range rocket at a town which is only 40KM away from Gaza.

    Furthermore, with what little funding HAMAS receives, it spends more than 90% of it's activities on welfare for the Gazans. This is a welcome respite for the Palestinians who are in dire straits due to the economic blockade and the corruption which is inherent in the Fatah administration.

    b) Moral duty - In your opinion, how do you think HAMAS can "protect it's citizens"?

    Israel's primary concern is the impact of their civilians foremost (as any other country would do) and so instead of sitting back defending against rockets for months and if not years they decided to destroy rocket bases. They have a moral duty to protect their citizens at all costs.
    They have the Iron Dome. The ID is considered to be a defense. Launching operations and instigating wars against the beleaguered Palestinian people who are living under occupation is an aggressive attack.

    The Palestinians have a "moral duty" to break the occupation of their territories by the SS.

    I do not understand why you suggest Israel are behaving in such a manner. "Whining" and "childish" are hardly representative of the Israeli government or IDF. Whatever we think of them the Israeli government is an intellectual and professional authority(hate them or like them you can not compare them to kids, I might as well compare Hamas to sheep but no point throwing inaccurate insults around). They have foreign and Home Secretaries as we do, they have ministers in the business, agricultural and environmental sectors as we do. They also have a collection of diplomats who represent them on the world stage. I do not believe they are moaning and think they are carrying out the offensive with the intention of doing so whether it is wrong or right.
    So instead of defending their actions, why do they complain and whine and throw tantrums about the tactics of HAMAS?

    Why does the SS resort to whataboutery, mistruths, lies and propaganda to justify their actions? Why does the SS complain about the media coverage about the dead Gazans? Why does the SS throw a hissy fit when the UNHRC decides to investigate their war crimes in Gaza?

    There is no other State which I have known (even America) that engages in such whining or constant complaints. The SS is only concerned about it's image and the PR coverage of the conflict. It doesn't give a crap about the Palestinians. The longer the SS exists, the harder it will become for them to justify the ongoing atrocities committed against the Palestinian people.

    The fact that it has to resort to such measures (which are inexcusable and doesn't even come close to justifying their own actions) and then complain about the PR coverage indicates to anyone that they are like a child, both in age and personality.


    "The SS is a troublesome child who was born out of the violation of it's mother and who is now displaying the psychotic and violent tendencies of it's father".

    Such a creature should never have been born...
 
 
 
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