The Commons Bar Mk IX - MHoC Chat Thread Watch

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Jammy Duel
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#5501
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#5501
(Original post by That Bearded Man)
Yes, and I think that's how it should be done.

If 100% of NI vote to stay/leave but the majority of the rest of the UK votes the opposite, the ultimatum should be made to NI to stick with the UK, or go independent, this applies elsewhere.

What if all of England and half of Scotland vote to leave, but 100% of Wales, NI and the other half of Scotland vote to stay, but it's an overall vote to leave? HOW IS THAT FAIR?

She should be allowed to vote for another referendum for Scotland if Scotland overall votes to stay but the rest to leave.

What do you mean by your last sentence? If Scotland voted to leave the UK but England voted for Scotland to stay - England's opinion is ignored? I think a country should be allowed to vote for it's own independence.
By my last sentence I mean that if in a second independence referendum one region were to vote to stay and all others to go independent she would force them to come because then her way of doing things is detrimental, let's go back the the original.

And It's fair BECAUSE WE ARE A SINGLE COUNTRY! The argument that each part should have to vote in favour is ridiculous. If we're going to say Scotland, Wales and NI should be considered independently then why not bother with the 8 regions of England? Oh yeah, because that would give the advantage back to democracy.
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Jammy Duel
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#5502
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#5502
(Original post by That Bearded Man)
I'd be interested to know how common this actually is, but I agree it is outrageous that opinions are being silenced, it's quite petulent. In Belfast we just had LIB/LAB/CON/SNP represented in a debate which was won by the SNP but the Conservatives weren't shouted down or silenced.

If it's the case that people are excluded because of their political beliefs that is wrong, and especially naive.
Pretty common, all you have to do is keep an eye on the news and suppression of free speech is happening all the time. Then when you get this massive thing about how many young people have kept quiet about their support for the Tories for fear of retribution from the left again you can see the issues. If you say anything against a woman you're shunned for sexism, anything against a LGBTQ(what other letters are added these days?) you're homophobic, against a Jew your antisemitic etc
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That Bearded Man
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#5503
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#5503
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
Pretty common, all you have to do is keep an eye on the news and suppression of free speech is happening all the time. Then when you get this massive thing about how many young people have kept quiet about their support for the Tories for fear of retribution from the left again you can see the issues. If you say anything against a woman you're shunned for sexism, anything against a LGBTQ(what other letters are added these days?) you're homophobic, against a Jew your antisemitic etc
Not surprising either, students are all about new ideas, exploring new opportunities etc. it's no surprise that their ideas contrast with the Conservatives. (by definition, more conservatives values)

Students (who aren't political) don't care about tax breaks, economic stability etc. because there's no visible difference that makes it appear moral. If I was RW and tried to get the apolitical student vote, I'd link it in to real-life people. Demonise taxes etc.

It's easier for Left wingers because public sector cuts have an obvious and ethical repercussion, "John will go hungry" "millionaire tax cuts" "extra waiting time in A+E" - everyone can relate to that and feel how immoral those are.

I'm amazed actually at how popular Tories have remained considering how obviously unpopular policies are to the general public. Like the 11% pay rise for politicians, the bedroom tax, the plan to reinstate fox hunting, the badger cull etc. I think all people who vote for them have to be either economically confident in them (agreeing with the need to cut services, so some basic economic interest), or attribute all their problems over the last 5 years to Labour (an amazing media feat)
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That Bearded Man
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#5504
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#5504
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
By my last sentence I mean that if in a second independence referendum one region were to vote to stay and all others to go independent she would force them to come because then her way of doing things is detrimental, let's go back the the original.

And It's fair BECAUSE WE ARE A SINGLE COUNTRY! The argument that each part should have to vote in favour is ridiculous. If we're going to say Scotland, Wales and NI should be considered independently then why not bother with the 8 regions of England? Oh yeah, because that would give the advantage back to democracy.
I would support that too, perhaps give "the North" the similar option of Independence or going with the UK out the door. But yes, by now it is quite complicated so we have to draw the line somewhere.
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Jammy Duel
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#5505
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#5505
(Original post by That Bearded Man)
Not surprising either, students are all about new ideas, exploring new opportunities etc. it's no surprise that their ideas contrast with the Conservatives. (by definition, more conservatives values)

Students (who aren't political) don't care about tax breaks, economic stability etc. because there's no visible difference that makes it appear moral. If I was RW and tried to get the apolitical student vote, I'd link it in to real-life people. Demonise taxes etc.

It's easier for Left wingers because public sector cuts have an obvious and ethical repercussion, "John will go hungry" "millionaire tax cuts" "extra waiting time in A+E" - everyone can relate to that and feel how immoral those are.

I'm amazed actually at how popular Tories have remained considering how obviously unpopular policies are to the general public. Like the 11% pay rise for politicians, the bedroom tax, the plan to reinstate fox hunting, the badger cull etc. I think all people who vote for them have to be either economically confident in them (agreeing with the need to cut services, so some basic economic interest), or attribute all their problems over the last 5 years to Labour (an amazing media feat)
http://nottingham.tab.co.uk/2015/05/...ing-otherwise/
While I hate the tab it's, for once, not a bad article
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Jammy Duel
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#5506
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#5506
(Original post by That Bearded Man)
I would support that too, perhaps give "the North" the similar option of Independence or going with the UK out the door. But yes, by now it is quite complicated so we have to draw the line somewhere.
And that line is "It's a single country, we're allegedly democratic, popular vote goes"
And you do realise that the regions aren't a simple North-South divide...
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That Bearded Man
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#5507
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#5507
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
http://nottingham.tab.co.uk/2015/05/...ing-otherwise/
While I hate the tab it's, for once, not a bad article
This is a terrible and misguided article. Don't you get that most of the left aren't motivated by personal fortune and in fact have a belief in helping the local people?

You can quote me in 20 years to correct me, but I am completely morally opposed to the Tory party and it's values, just because I want to reduce my tax isn't an excuse to change allegiances. Besides, I genuinely care about public services, I will be working in it, so how could I honestly vote for them?
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That Bearded Man
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#5508
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#5508
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
And that line is "It's a single country, we're allegedly democratic, popular vote goes"
And you do realise that the regions aren't a simple North-South divide...
Probably yes, but as I say, it is up to "them" to decide if they want independence from the South, and only then would I accept their demand to be included as a nation in the EU vote.
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Jammy Duel
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#5509
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#5509
(Original post by That Bearded Man)
Probably yes, but as I say, it is up to "them" to decide if they want independence from the South, and only then would I accept their demand to be included as a nation in the EU vote.
When are you going to grasp this idea that the fact that Scotland wants independence is irrelevant, IT IS NOT an independent state, it does not have any democratic right to overpower the will of the majority, what Sturgeon wants would in theory see just over 1% of the population able to overturn the decision of the other 99%, if she calls that democratic she needs to be put in an asylum.
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That Bearded Man
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#5510
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#5510
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
When are you going to grasp this idea that the fact that Scotland wants independence is irrelevant, IT IS NOT an independent state, it does not have any democratic right to overpower the will of the majority, what Sturgeon wants would in theory see just over 1% of the population able to overturn the decision of the other 99%, if she calls that democratic she needs to be put in an asylum.
Oh I see, I thought she was just pushing for a referendum from the UK in the event of UK voting to leave. As I said earlier, I could agree with Sturgeon in the sense of all 4 states needing to agree, but if Scotland says NO and the rest say YES, Scotland should have their own re-vote to decide to leave the UK completely and the UK leaves the EU or to stay with UK and leave the EU. I think this is a fairer compromise than completely blocking it.
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Jammy Duel
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#5511
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#5511
(Original post by That Bearded Man)
Oh I see, I thought she was just pushing for a referendum from the UK in the event of UK voting to leave. As I said earlier, I could agree with Sturgeon in the sense of all 4 states needing to agree, but if Scotland says NO and the rest say YES, Scotland should have their own re-vote to decide to leave the UK completely and the UK leaves the EU or to stay with UK and leave the EU. I think this is a fairer compromise than completely blocking it.
Well, she wants it to be blocked or use it as a mandate to demand another referendum and she'll obviously try to get it through immediately rather than letting people see just what it's like outside the EU, in reality it should be left at least a decade after leaving before they can have a referendum.
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bun
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#5512
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#5512
(Original post by The Financier)
In other news, it seems support for Dan Jarvis to run for Labour Leader is increasing. Given that he's served in the armed forces and is a vice-chair for Progress, the Blairite wing of Labour, he could be a very interesting person to lead Labour's recovery.
Very popular here in Yorkshire. Very good at responding to local people. Certainly looks the part (which unfortunately has a role in the public's eye). Army background certainly helps him - not that that did much for IDS, whose father was one of the greatest heroes of WWII!
Can certainly see him winning it, but think he might want a few years really getting to grips with Westminster, getting experience etc.
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Rakas21
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#5513
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#5513
(Original post by That Bearded Man)
Interesting article in the Telegraph about students hiding their vote for the Conservatives and pretended they voted Labour. Obviously it's a bad sign if people can't even honestly admit who they vote for, and shows how strong Left the students remain, but the people admitted that while they were considered with people on benefits, disabled, etc. the economy was what mattered to them more. Honestly, they should be expecting criticism under those circumstances and should be prepared to defend themselves.
As one of the people who friends know i vote Tory but i've not exactly proclaimed it around Facebook, i have absolutely no issue defending why i voted.. the substance of the matter. The problem is that there are a huge number of people on the left who are norrow minded inferior pricks who attack the person and not the substance.

The title of the article is somewhat wrong since i don't hate myself and i'm not embarrassed (i'm just not putting up with the hassle from people i don't know and don't care about - though there may really be people embarrassed).
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That Bearded Man
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#5514
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#5514
(Original post by Rakas21)
As one of the people who friends know i vote Tory but i've not exactly proclaimed it around Facebook, i have absolutely no issue defending why i voted.. the substance of the matter. The problem is that there are a huge number of people on the left who are norrow minded inferior pricks who attack the person and not the substance.

The title of the article is somewhat wrong since i don't hate myself and i'm not embarrassed (i'm just not putting up with the hassle from people i don't know and don't care about - though there may really be people embarrassed).
Most Tory voters I've talked to strongly condemn things like the bedroom tax, so escape alot of the blame attached to them.
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Rakas21
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#5515
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#5515
(Original post by That Bearded Man)
Most Tory voters I've talked to strongly condemn things like the bedroom tax, so escape alot of the blame attached to them.
I agree but that's beside the point for me. People are dicks and seem intent in damaging my opinion of them.
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TeeEff
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#5516
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#5516
(Original post by bun)
Very popular here in Yorkshire. Very good at responding to local people. Certainly looks the part (which unfortunately has a role in the public's eye). Army background certainly helps him - not that that did much for IDS, whose father was one of the greatest heroes of WWII!
Can certainly see him winning it, but think he might want a few years really getting to grips with Westminster, getting experience etc.
Seems like he thinks the same way. With a bit more experience on the front benches, he'll be an excellent choice when the new one cocks it up.
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That Bearded Man
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#5517
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#5517
(Original post by Rakas21)
I agree but that's beside the point for me. People are dicks and seem intent in damaging my opinion of them.
Calls people dicks because their dicks but hates it when people call him or people like him a ****.

Okay.
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tehFrance
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#5518
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#5518
Does anyone get the feeling we'd be better off in Norway or Sweden... Not Denmark, Denmark is full of brunettes and I prefer blondes
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That Bearded Man
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#5519
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#5519
(Original post by tehFrance)
Does anyone get the feeling we'd be better off in Norway or Sweden... Not Denmark, Denmark is full of brunettes and I prefer blondes
Yup - stunning women, wealthy country, socialist utopia and I've got citizenship
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tehFrance
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#5520
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#5520
(Original post by That Bearded Man)
Yup - stunning women, wealthy country, socialist utopia and I've got citizenship
Yes! Were you born there?

If I wasn't engaged I move to Norway, find a nice woman and settle down there but yeah, not going to happen :lol:
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