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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    But if you want to leave then the onus is on you to suggest an alternative to alleviate the potential consequences.

    Otherwise you just say 'we want to leave' and its up to the government to sort it out. If the government genuinely feels that it's not in our best interests to leave and that the result would be crippling then it's more than entitled to demand that the leave campaign spell out an alternative.
    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    The problem is that there is no way to take us out without causing severe damage. We're not asking you to predict what the government will do, we're asking you to provide a single non-catastrophic and realistic (read: we don't get pie-in-the-sky level trade deals) leave scenario. The problem, of course, for Brexiters, is that Brexit would range from very bad to catastrophic no matter what happens, so this cannot be answered.
    2% weaker growth over a decade, considering allegations there will be a recession (which means about 5% lower growth in reality) is hardly "very bad." Even the worst case projections show at least equivalent growth in the long term. And we are being asked to predict government actions, why else is it always "which of these pre defined models are you going to go for" rather than "what would you like to see in the agreement"

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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    ZHCs are the most productive contracts a company can offer. If you have a few employees and all of them are on ZHCs you have a very productive workforce, the more people you have on ZHCs the more output you have and the more that your company grows.

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    Eh, that's a rather dubious argument otherwise we're calling McDonalds and Sports Direct some of the most productive companies in the UK which is clearly nonsense. An employer has no incentive to implement long-term productivity-boosting measures like training and upskilling as the flexibility applies both ways. Equally, workers who don't need the flexibility have less morale as they lack job security, thus affecting worker output. ZHCs are appropriate for some people but shouldn't be applied for the whole workforce.

    On the trade deal topic, I think it's important to remember that the EU is as much a political project as it is an economic one. Sure, if they were rational, they would strike a trade deal with preferable terms for both parties but if it becomes clear that you can leave and enjoy much of the benefits without paying the costs, others will look to do the same which I very much doubt the EU will want to encourage, even at the cost of a Lose-Lose situation in which they play hardball and refuse single market access (as the political future of Europe is deemed of greater value than reduced costs of trading with us). Indeed, if they were rational, surely they would've long struck the trade deals with China, India et al that the Leave camp are convinced they have stopped us having, yet we're now expecting them to act rationally with us post-Brexit? I'm rather skeptical.
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    As i've said elsewhere, i believe that whether and how quickly we get an adequate deal (which most probably deem as keeping us in the single market) largely comes down to how fast and far we are willing to capitulate to the EU on immigration.

    If the negotiating team don't give ground on immigration then we'll probably see the negotiations lasting years with a larger negative effect on the economy in that period. If the government has them capitulate quickly to get a deal then the effects will be comparatively mild but of course the Tories then risk being scolded by the electorate for it.
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    Cameron's off to a good start of not answering the questions

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    2% weaker growth over a decade, considering allegations there will be a recession (which means about 5% lower growth in reality) is hardly "very bad." Even the worst case projections show at least equivalent growth in the long term. And we are being asked to predict government actions, why else is it always "which of these pre defined models are you going to go for" rather than "what would you like to see in the agreement"

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    I don't think it's at all unreasonable or unfair to ask the leave campaign to present a viable alternative, since they are advocating change.
    We are not asking for precise and intricate details, just a viable blueprint.

    Since the government feels it is best to stay, the onus is clearly on the leave campaign to present an alternative, otherwise the government is knowingly walking us off a cliff.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Cameron's off to a good start of not answering the questions

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    Lousy pm 😉
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I don't think it's at all unreasonable or unfair to ask the leave campaign to present a viable alternative, since they are advocating change.
    We are not asking for precise and intricate details, just a viable blueprint.

    Since the government feels it is best to stay, the onus is clearly on the leave campaign to present an alternative, otherwise the government is knowingly walking us off a cliff.
    If the government thinks we're going to have a 5pc recession (which Cameron is saying right now) and that the world will start falling apart why call it in the first place? If it really is so dangerous then they should have said so as an explanation why it's so dangerous and thus that there will be no referendum.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    If the government thinks we're going to have a 5pc recession (which Cameron is saying right now) and that the world will start falling apart why call it in the first place? If it really is so dangerous then they should have said so as an explanation why it's so dangerous and thus that there will be no referendum.

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    Perhaps. But that doesn't take away from the point that the leave campaign haven't presented a viable alternative.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    If the government thinks we're going to have a 5pc recession (which Cameron is saying right now) and that the world will start falling apart why call it in the first place? If it really is so dangerous then they should have said so as an explanation why it's so dangerous and thus that there will be no referendum.

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    yes, but that doesn't mean that they'd do that though... Because the fear of UKIP and a backbench revolt stopped them. Ultimately DC cares more about his job then the country.
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    I don't agree with him but Cameron has a clear message here and he's doing a good job.

    I've also now put my money where my mouth is and trusted my gold standard pollsters (Ipsos, Comres, ICM). Money on Leave at odds of 9/4.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    yes, but that doesn't mean that they'd do that though... Because the fear of UKIP and a backbench revolt stopped them. Ultimately DC cares more about his job then the country.
    He says staying is best for jobs, yeah, his and Gideon's: D

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    Good to see Cameron saying that there will be no GE if leave wins. That's a hit for leave.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Perhaps. But that doesn't take away from the point that the leave campaign haven't presented a viable alternative.
    Should you not be asking Mr Cameron and Hammond what they plan to do, or at least who Cameron would make Foreign Minister?

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    He says staying is best for jobs, yeah, his and Gideon's: D

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    And the U.K. In general... For the workers who are in TNC's who are based in the UK to access the EU.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I don't agree with him but Cameron has a clear message here and he's doing a good job.

    I've also now put my money where my mouth is and trusted my gold standard pollsters (Ipsos, Comres, ICM). Money on Leave at odds of 9/4.
    I think this could come down to a few thousand votes either way.

    I also wonder/hope if there may be such thing as a 'shy remain voter'.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Good to see Cameron saying that there will be no GE if leave wins. That's a hit for leave.
    How? Do you seriously think leave wanted a GE? It's perhaps the worst thing that Parliament could do if we leave

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I think this could come down to a few thousand votes either way.

    I also wonder/hope if there may be such thing as a 'shy remain voter'.
    I definitely think there is such a thing as a shy Remain voter.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    How? Do you seriously think leave wanted a GE? It's perhaps the worst thing that Parliament could do if we leave

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    Some Labour leave voters think the story disarray will help a Corbynite Labour Party win a snap election.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I don't agree with him but Cameron has a clear message here and he's doing a good job.

    I've also now put my money where my mouth is and trusted my gold standard pollsters (Ipsos, Comres, ICM). Money on Leave at odds of 9/4.
    His clear message is on the wrong lines though, instead of sending a positive message about the EU and how great his renegotiation was (you'd think it never happened the amount you hear about it) and instead about how leaving will end the world, and do an extent where it simply gets him ignored and laughed at, the only people who bought the revenge budget are the hardliners

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    How? Do you seriously think leave wanted a GE? It's perhaps the worst thing that Parliament could do if we leave

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    As I've told you before the leftist leavers want it to cause a GE to get Cameron out. By catagoricaly ruling it out he's damaged the left leave vote.
 
 
 
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