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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    He came out fighting and passionate which I liked.
    The reality though is that he's dealing with a bunch of people who've simply decided that the EU and immigration are worse than Hitler and they refuse to engage in actual logic and evidence.

    Its like dealing with religious fundamentalists. You can show them as much evidence as required to disprove their point and they just turn round and go 'screw logic and evidence, I believe...'


    It's the same here. There's an awful lot of people who for some reason feel that every problem in their life will be solved by Brexit.
    And pro-EU fanatics aren't? Your side of the debate is much the same, so drop the piety.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    If/when Boris takes over as PM, I feel like there will be an awful lot of unhappy soft Tories/ labour-Tory swing voters. If labour get a centrist leader they could really capitalise.

    Cameron at the last GE had the swing voters in the palm of his hand, Boris johnson I'm not so sure, he's far more divisive.
    His ratings say otherwise, he is far more popular than Cameron, has a less right wing approval centre point and appeals better to young people and women. Cameron is in turn better than Osborne. May, about as popular as Cameron, appeals a lot less to young people. Give, even though he isn't standing, is similar to May

    Boris is the stronger candidate right now when it comes to being seen well

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    (Original post by toronto353)
    And pro-EU fanatics aren't? Your side of the debate is much the same, so drop the piety.
    Except it's not. The remain camp see the EU as not perfect but better than any proposed alternative.

    The leave campaign with their enormous victim mentality pretty much see the EU as worse than Hitler.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    And pro-EU fanatics aren't? Your side of the debate is much the same, so drop the piety.
    Not really, no.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Except it's not. The remain camp see the EU as not perfect but better than any proposed alternative.

    The leave campaign with their enormous victim mentality pretty much see the EU as worse than Hitler.
    Again with the vast assumptions about either camp. I've met remain supporters who idolise the EU and behave as if they were religious fundamentalists unable to accept that the EU isn't perfect. I mean, to give one example, look at how Aph views the EU. You really do your argument no favours when you try to generalise.

    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Not really, no.
    See above. I've met people who refuse to listen to criticism about the EU, so there are similar people on both sides.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    Again with the vast assumptions about either camp. I've met remain supporters who idolise the EU and behave as if they were religious fundamentalists unable to accept that the EU isn't perfect. I mean, to give one example, look at how Aph views the EU. You really do your argument no favours when you try to generalise.

    See above. I've met people who refuse to listen to criticism about the EU, so there are similar people on both sides.
    There are similar people on both sides but it'd be disingenuous to say that both were equally bad.
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    I've not noticed the leave side making the most of Cox's death, Remain on the other hand...
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I've not noticed the leave side making the most of Cox's death, Remain on the other hand...
    They've no shame as long as it bolsters their cause.
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    (Original post by nebelbon)
    They've no shame as long as it bolsters their cause.
    I imagine it's what she'd want. It's certainly what her husband wants.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    There are similar people on both sides but it'd be disingenuous to say that both were equally bad.
    Not at all - those who hate the EU and say it's worse than Hitler, for example, are no better or worse than those who are wedded to the idea of making us into a province of a country called the EU, in the process, stripping us of our nationhood, our democracy, and our freedoms.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    I imagine it's what she'd want. It's certainly what her husband wants.
    It is very distasteful and really shows they've run out of anything of substance to say; not that there has been much of that from either campaign tbh.

    I just can't wait until it is all over, sick and tired of it now, I'm still not sure how to vote.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    Not at all - those who hate the EU and say it's worse than Hitler, for example, are no better or worse than those who are wedded to the idea of making us into a province of a country called the EU, in the process, stripping us of our nationhood, our democracy, and our freedoms.
    Spot on again! A shame I cannot rep you more
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    I imagine it's what she'd want. It's certainly what her husband wants.
    She'd want people to use her death as a campaigning tool to stay in the EU? To be honest, it's shameful and despicable and for someone as principled as Jo Cox, I can scarcely believe that anyone who knew her would expect her to want her death to be used in such a way.

    (Original post by nebelbon)
    Spot on again! A shame I cannot rep you more
    Well, I did use to be a 'kipper for a while on here, so that might be the reason

    Also, vote leave - I'm just trying to help you make up your mind :lol:
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    She'd want people to use her death as a campaigning tool to stay in the EU? To be honest, it's shameful and despicable and for someone as principled as Jo Cox, I can scarcely believe that anyone who knew her would expect her to want her death to be used in such a way.



    Well, I did use to be a 'kipper for a while on here, so that might be the reason

    Also, vote leave - I'm just trying to help you make up your mind :lol:
    Haha

    You'd be better at heading the campaign for Leave than some of the wallops that are attempting to do it
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    (Original post by nebelbon)
    Haha

    You'd be better at heading the campaign for Leave than some of the wallops that are attempting to do it
    Thank you. For me, I initially had some doubts, but when you look at it, the only realistic option is vote leave. We and the other members of the EU want different things - us trade, them closer integration. We can't agree to the latter, so let's not hold back the EU, but have an amicable split allowing us to pursue our own interests without holding the EU back.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    If the government thinks we're going to have a 5pc recession (which Cameron is saying right now) and that the world will start falling apart why call it in the first place? If it really is so dangerous then they should have said so as an explanation why it's so dangerous and thus that there will be no referendum.

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    Obviously it's an electoral tactic, another example of the Tories' blasé approach to the economy which makes a complete mockery of their platform of 'economic responsibility'.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    Not at all - those who hate the EU and say it's worse than Hitler, for example, are no better or worse than those who are wedded to the idea of making us into a province of a country called the EU, in the process, stripping us of our nationhood, our democracy, and our freedoms.
    European Federalists are a minority. And actually the people who invoke Hitler are worse.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    Thank you. For me, I initially had some doubts, but when you look at it, the only realistic option is vote leave. We and the other members of the EU want different things - us trade, them closer integration. We can't agree to the latter, so let's not hold back the EU, but have an amicable split allowing us to pursue our own interests without holding the EU back.
    I agree with those points, however there are some things that are stopping me from being completely leave. I'm all for the freedom of movement, to a certain extent, as it has proved itself useful to myself and many I know. I'm also quite certain that I would lose my job within a few years of leaving the EU which would be a bit annoying. It is also the uncertainty, but that also draws me to leave.
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    (Original post by nebelbon)
    It is very distasteful and really shows they've run out of anything of substance to say; not that there has been much of that from either campaign tbh.

    I just can't wait until it is all over, sick and tired of it now, I'm still not sure how to vote.
    As opposed to the Brexit campaign which never had anything of substance to say so jumped straight into anti-migrant fear mongering.

    (Original post by toronto353)
    She'd want people to use her death as a campaigning tool to stay in the EU? To be honest, it's shameful and despicable and for someone as principled as Jo Cox, I can scarcely believe that anyone who knew her would expect her to want her death to be used in such a way.
    Where is her death being used as a 'distasteful tool'?

    Besides, I'd want my death to contribute to the ideals I believed in during my life.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    As opposed to the Brexit campaign which never had anything of substance to say so jumped straight into anti-migrant fear mongering.



    Where is her death being used as a 'distasteful tool'?

    Besides, I'd want my death to contribute to the ideals I believed in during my life.
    I did say leave were guilty of the same thing.
 
 
 
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