Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    i have an opinion on lots of things, but im not obsessed with palestine or israel- as you and many other muslims are. i simply asked you why you are, when there have been much more bigger conflicts or more relevant ones to you - but you had no answer. i guess its pointless asking the indoctrinated why they are indoctrinated , my bad.
    Your opinion has been noted.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    As I've said, I believe to you, before the PLO are willing to negotiate, Hamas is not. Israel nicely blocks it all until the Hamas Issue is resolved.
    Let's consider something a bit closer to home (for those in the Uk at least). Saying the Islamists are stopping a solution is like like saying the IRA are stopping a solution in Northern Ireland, yet progress is still being made, albeit slowly.
    i dont pretend that israel would act or react in the same way uk govmnt would. however support for the ira ( in terms for militancy) has dwindled, whereas support for islamist groups has hardly dwindled, becuase many muslims are deluded enough to never accept their role in this ( or various toher) conflicts.
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    i dont pretend that israel would act or react in the same way uk govmnt would. however support for the ira ( in terms for militancy) has dwindled, whereas support for islamist groups has hardly dwindled, becuase many muslims are deluded enough to never accept their role in this ( or various toher) conflicts.
    But as a case study it shows that it is possible to come to an agreement that is sufficient for the main parties involved. The total removal of fringe groups will likely take centuries, and in many respects if you look at the relationships between England and Ireland, and the Zionists and Palestinians they're as complex as each other.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    But as a case study it shows that it is possible to come to an agreement that is sufficient for the main parties involved. The total removal of fringe groups will likely take centuries, and in many respects if you look at the relationships between England and Ireland, and the Zionists and Palestinians they're as complex as each other.
    probably more so, mainly becuase the islamists see it as a 1300 year old indignation to now be ruled by a tribe ( jewish) that mohamemd conquered long time ago and when his followers seized jerusalem for islam. essentially the europeans screwed the whole thing up by conquering jerusalem and the middle east much later.
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    probably more so, mainly becuase the islamists see it as a 1300 year old indignation to now be ruled by a tribe ( jewish) that mohamemd conquered long time ago and when his followers seized jerusalem for islam. essentially the europeans screwed the whole thing up by conquering jerusalem and the middle east much later.
    But you could also argue that the Ottomans (and yes, you could classify them as European, but also middle eastern. It can be argued any way you want) are to blame since it was part of their Empire. The Jews starting arriving while the area was part of an empire. But you could be petty enough to say it's the fault of the Europeans because of the Roman Empire being there, or Seleucid before them, or Macedon before them etc. It's impossible to really pin down the blame on any individual group, rather the collection of groups that is religions. This is the sort of **** you get when you get three major religions all with the same roots and thus all have the same holy places.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Why would they need to "condemn the murders"? They had nothing to do with it, did they?
    If I called somebody a hero, and then it transpired that they did something sick and disgusting which I disagreed with, it would be necessary for me to repudiate my previous remarks. Hamas have done no such thing.

    Your ideals are circular. In fact, they are specifically a catch-22 situation.
    In what way? Many countries have done a huge amount to improve themselves in my view over the centuries.

    I take it is limited. Have you started pigeoholing your views again?
    Everything is limited, unless you are a utopian...

    Islamic State of Gaza has a nice ring to it but guess what, it's not been declared.

    There goes your tinpot theory about Islamists and the Caliphate...
    You're making a fool out of yourself by claiming that Hamas don't want to set up an Islamic state in Palestine.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    But you could also argue that the Ottomans (and yes, you could classify them as European, but also middle eastern. It can be argued any way you want) are to blame since it was part of their Empire. The Jews starting arriving while the area was part of an empire. But you could be petty enough to say it's the fault of the Europeans because of the Roman Empire being there, or Seleucid before them, or Macedon before them etc. It's impossible to really pin down the blame on any individual group, rather the collection of groups that is religions. This is the sort of **** you get when you get three major religions all with the same roots and thus all have the same holy places.
    it was the europeans that defeated the ottomans, although they were 'muslim' they conquered the arabs and in fact controlled both mecca and jerusalem, something which the arabs could not abide either. ultimatly the whole story of the middle east is rabid tribalism, whetehr its about islam vs jew or even muslim vs muslim ( turk v arab, shiai v sunni etc) islam has not been a good influnce in that region, so therefore islamists are not a force for good in the palestinian issue either. you will not solve these age old problems, all you can do is try and introduce logic and civlisaed thought (good luck) and step away from the tribalism that islamists promote. note this is not an issue isolated to palestine ether -the same priciple festers in places like chechnya uihgugr china, nigeria, sudan kashmir etc. all islamist agendas. no more islamic empire , so this is the next best thing for them
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Maliha Ahmed)
    I agree and this is exactly why he/she ignored my post regarding the situations under Palestinians are living under. The whole world knows that innocent Palestinians are brutally getting killed and no one justifies the actions of Israel. Its actually sad to see how people can disregard the killing of such innocent and young children and still justify Israel's actions.
    just to get things straight...im jewish and a zionist and i dont understand why you think the actions of israel are to blame- i actually agree with you when you say; "innocent Palestinians are brutally getting killed" - its not fair that innocent civillians are being killed! However putting the blame on israel is unfair. Here is why....israel warns palestinians with leaflets and door knocking before bombing an area, however more fundamentally the blame for the death of innocent palestinians is the fault of hamas as they set up their rockets in areas with hospitals and children, so of course there will be palestinian casualties! Israel actually cares more for palestinians then hamas does!- what utter irony....so dont vent your anger at israel at the deaths of palestinian civillians when it is the fault of hamas. If hamas stopped fireing rockets then there would be no retalliation from israel and thus no palestinian casualties!
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    it was the europeans that defeated the ottomans, although they were 'muslim' they conquered the arabs and in fact controlled both mecca and jerusalem, something which the arabs could not abide either. ultimatly the whole story of the middle east is rabid tribalism, whetehr its about islam vs jew or even muslim vs muslim ( turk v arab, shiai v sunni etc) islam has not been a good influnce in that region, so therefore islamists are not a force for good in the palestinian issue either. you will not solve these age old problems, all you can do is try and introduce logic and civlisaed thought (good luck) and step away from the tribalism that islamists promote. note this is not an issue isolated to palestine ether -the same priciple festers in places like chechnya uihgugr china, nigeria, sudan kashmir etc. all islamist agendas. no more islamic empire , so this is the next best thing for them
    The simplest solution would be for a third party to get involved and force them all to get along, but that would never happen, not least because the necessary measures that would have to come with it (such as an amount of indiscriminate killing) would be internationally condemned. I suppose, on the flip side it could cause them to settle their differences to fight a common foe. Either way, it's impractical.

    I think, in some respects, Christianity is to blame in all this (and this isn't just some antotheistic rant) in that it hardly helped the tribal issues when you're being further split. By extension the eastern roman empire is to blame also. You also have to consider the question "had Christianity never gained a following, would Islam exist today, and if so how would be ideology be different? " because I can't believe that there is no influence from Christianity.

    It's also worth noting that your argument against islamists can be applied to religion in general. Religion drives people and communities apart, the are plenty of examples, Palestine and Ireland being two examples. Religion (or lack of, which imo is preferable) should bring people together, not drive them apart. However religion is intrinsically flawed and cannot truly allow union of all man (unless you manage to reduce it to a small enough sample).

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by felamaslen)
    If I called somebody a hero, and then it transpired that they did something sick and disgusting which I disagreed with, it would be necessary for me to repudiate my previous remarks. Hamas have done no such thing.
    Given the fact that the Israeli's still have yet to confirm who killed them and why, it would be prudent to remain silent until such a time when such information is released by the Israeli information Burea...

    In what way? Many countries have done a huge amount to improve themselves in my view over the centuries.
    I have no wish nor desire to go off on a tangent. This is a discussion for another thread.

    Everything is limited, unless you are a utopian...
    You want to limit what constitutes a liberal democracy to your own view. You accept no digressions and thus, your ideals can be classified as utopian.

    You're making a fool out of yourself by claiming that Hamas don't want to set up an Islamic state in Palestine.
    If they wanted to, then they would have declared it already...
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by gideon123)
    just to get things straight...im jewish and a zionist and i dont understand why you think the actions of israel are to blame- i actually agree with you when you say; "innocent Palestinians are brutally getting killed" - its not fair that innocent civillians are being killed! However putting the blame on israel is unfair. Here is why....israel warns palestinians with leaflets and door knocking before bombing an area, however more fundamentally the blame for the death of innocent palestinians is the fault of hamas as they set up their rockets in areas with hospitals and children, so of course there will be palestinian casualties! Israel actually cares more for palestinians then hamas does!- what utter irony....so dont vent your anger at israel at the deaths of palestinian civillians when it is the fault of hamas. If hamas stopped fireing rockets then there would be no retalliation from israel and thus no palestinian casualties!
    If the whole of Gaza is blockaded, under attack from all sides and the IDF are "warning" civilians to evacuate, exactly where should the Gazans go given the fact that the stip of land is only 360 km squared?
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:


    What an abject failure from this Israeli puppet to "be more clear"....
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Probably the most horrifying picture that one has seen:

    Spoiler:
    Show
    • TSR Support Team
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    it has become an issue for the entire world- my point is it should never have. europe, the us, south america, most of asia ( non muslims) would be perfectly happy if the palestinians handed over the land to the jews , or vice versa, jsut so long as jews and muslims learnt to settle down live in peace.
    its only the islamic agenda that cannot allow a simple peaceful solution, (as they wont in any conflct) i fully beleive islamsits need conflcit to continue, to be able to continually spread their message. they have you under their thumb, why would they let you up? muslims in uk, asia, africa, all puppets on a string fixated on palestine
    What gives European Jews exclusive rights to Palestine? :lolwut:
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:


    Dispelling the Israeli propaganda that they "warn civilians". What's the point of a warning if you can't act on said warning?

    Israel should just issue a blanket warning and then start with their deadly civilian attacks...
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Israel are now targeting activists as opposed to "terrorists"....
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by gideon123)
    just to get things straight...im jewish and a zionist and i dont understand why you think the actions of israel are to blame- i actually agree with you when you say; "innocent Palestinians are brutally getting killed" - its not fair that innocent civillians are being killed! However putting the blame on israel is unfair. Here is why....israel warns palestinians with leaflets and door knocking before bombing an area, however more fundamentally the blame for the death of innocent palestinians is the fault of hamas as they set up their rockets in areas with hospitals and children, so of course there will be palestinian casualties! Israel actually cares more for palestinians then hamas does!- what utter irony....so dont vent your anger at israel at the deaths of palestinian civillians when it is the fault of hamas. If hamas stopped fireing rockets then there would be no retalliation from israel and thus no palestinian casualties!
    You say you're Jewish, g-d will not accept that excuse my friend. "We told him we were going to bomb his house in 57 seconds" or "he lived near hamas".

    In g-ds eyes a murder is a murder.

    Peace
    • Offline

      16
      (Original post by Kutta)
      Yes but Hamas have not killed over 200 people, the majority of which were innocent women and children.....
      All that means is Hamas aren't very good at this conflict thing.

      The fact is the number of attacks was listed on the BBC at about 2000 from Israel and about 1350 from Hamas. Israel has a defensive iron ring in place, which Hamas does not. Just because Israel is better at defending against attacks does not automatically make them the bad guys in this.

      Hamas are and remain an Islamic terror group that happened to get a bit of land. With any luck, Israel will be able to remove Hamas from government.

      The Palestinians should be looking to Hamas when they want to blame someone. They're the source of Israel's attacks. Israel couldn't give a rat's ass about the average civilian. Hamas are the issue and always have been in this region of the world.
      Offline

      12
      ReputationRep:
      (Original post by tsr1269)
      If the whole of Gaza is blockaded, under attack from all sides and the IDF are "warning" civilians to evacuate, exactly where should the Gazans go given the fact that the stip of land is only 360 km squared?
      i am actually laughing at this...do you know there are many arab countries surrounding israel?...they could seek refuge in any of these countries whereas a jew could never dream about even setting foot in to these arab countries.
      Offline

      12
      ReputationRep:
      (Original post by Kutta)
      You say you're Jewish, g-d will not accept that excuse my friend. "We told him we were going to bomb his house in 57 seconds" or "he lived near hamas".

      In g-ds eyes a murder is a murder.

      Peace
      the bible also says that anyone who is trying to kill you, then you must kill them first- this can be applied to with hamas. your argument of 57 seconds and living near hamas are completely untrue...israel gives the palestinians plenty of warning and they only bomb places that to their intelligence have hamas members
     
     
     
    Reply
    Submit reply
    TSR Support Team

    We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

    Updated: January 8, 2017
  1. See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  2. Poll
    Did TEF Bronze Award affect your UCAS choices?
    Useful resources
  3. See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  4. The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.