Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Many of us regard members of the far right as pretty bonkers by default.

    I can't see what difference it makes and anyway he seems from all reports so far to have been someone functioning reasonably OK in society, he had a job, etc.
    deep. very deep.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Thutmose-III)
    I'm a leave voter but frankly it is pissing me off to see how desperately Breitbart-type people are playing down the political/ideological angle while playing up the mental illness one.

    That is pretty much in direct contradiction of everything they said in the immediate aftermath of the Orlando attack
    Although I agree with what you are saying here, I don't see the man's ideology as having much to do with Brexit. Since when was "Britain First" a Brexit slogan? It is a slogan of a tiny fringe group that is mostly opposed to non-EU immigration.
    Offline

    9
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    Mainstream politicians have, at least since Powell's Rivers of Blood speech, been extremely coy about discussing race, immigration and cultural change. Mainstream politicians have made it clear that this has been to avoid stirring up racial hatred and hatred against immigrants. Farage has called for a more open debate on these issues and has proceeded to address these issues and has used emotive language in doing so. He has bridged the gap between the political far right, long seen as beyond the pale of political discourse and mainstream politicians.

    So mainstream politicians have said don't poke the bear or it will attack. Farage has said that it is his right to poke the bear and it is desirable to poke the bear. He has poked the bear and the bear has attacked.
    So what you are suggesting is that by calling for tighter immigration controls based around merit rather than where someone is from in the world he has stirred racial hatreds to the point that people are now more willing to murder those that disagree with him. This is thin gruel indeed. I think if there has been any effect of his public engagement with touchy issues like this it has been to make a large number of less educated and rather angry people feel included in the democratic process in a way they didn't before which it seems obvious would lessen rather than inflame thoughts on murderous violence.

    It will be a test of Farage's politically ability how he handles this. Pontius Pilate's answer will probably not be good enough for those who are not his committed fans.
    What do you mean?
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    It's somewhat confusing to see Cameron and osborne wax lyrical about her commitment to refugees when just a few months ago they told 3000 children to f**k off and described them as a 'swarm'. In the Commons Cameron would have been mocking her.


    Also strange to see so many laud her commitment to human rights and justice yet they only mention that when she's dead. Boris Johnson sneezes and it gets 3 days press coverage saying how great it is, jo cox dedicates her life to charity and public service and was unheard of...

    The likes of Farage normalise the ideology of the far right. They make standing in front of a poster of refugees with a sign saying 'breaking point' mainstream. The make saying things like 'i dont want to live next to Romanians' non racist. Yes there are legitimate reasons to have concerns over immigration but the likes of Farage and the far right don't address those concerns, they exploit them.

    The culture of aggression and hatred espoused by these lot is to blame for creating the conditions for these horrific attacks to take place.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    It's somewhat confusing to see Cameron and osborne wax lyrical about her commitment to refugees when just a few months ago they told 3000 children to f**k off and described them as a 'swarm'. In the Commons Cameron would have been mocking her.


    Also strange to see so many laud her commitment to human rights and justice yet they only mention that when she's dead. Boris Johnson sneezes and it gets 3 days press coverage saying how great it is, jo cox dedicates her life to charity and public service and was unheard of...
    I agree, that's pretty ridiculous.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The likes of Farage normalise the ideology of the far right. They make standing in front of a poster of refugees with a sign saying 'breaking point' mainstream. The make saying things like 'i dont want to live next to Romanians' non racist. Yes there are legitimate reasons to have concerns over immigration but the likes of Farage and the far right don't address those concerns, they exploit them.

    The culture of aggression and hatred espoused by these lot is to blame for creating the conditions for these horrific attacks to take place.
    UKIP isn't really far right. There is very little difference with the right of the Conservative Party. Britain First or the BNP are far right.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by The Roast)
    I'm of course referring to psychosis here.
    Oh, you mean he'd lost touch with reality, again far right, not in touch with reality, same thing isn't it?
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    People need to stop saying it's all speculation that his motives were political, that he met her by accident, that there was a tussle and he didn't intend to kill her, etc, etc.
    It's obvious that his motives were political, but trying to link it with UKIP is just wrong.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Josb)
    It's obvious that his motives were political, but trying to link it with UKIP is just wrong.
    I think it's clear that the atmosphere of hate now widely circulating and considered acceptable (just look at many TSR threads for examples) is fostered and assisted by the devious and manipulative public methods of UKIP, who colonised racist attitudes towards immigration and used them to further their Leave campaign, when their real motives are about removing worker's right and giving the City untrammeled freedom to prey on citizens. Farage in particular is firmly in this category, but so are his shifty companions-in-arms, Boris, Ian, Michael and the rest of the corrupt rabble.

    Interestingly, when he was Mayor of London, Boris spent a great deal of time touring China and Dubai offering London property to rich speculators. Apparently immigrants are OK if they are money laundering.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Josb)
    It's obvious that his motives were political, but trying to link it with UKIP is just wrong.
    Yeah at first I thought he was just crazy and she was just horrifically the fall person, but the fact she was leaving a library after hosting a surgery suggests that he knew that she was holding that meeting and specially targeted her. Basically a panned murder.

    Absolutely deveststing that a husband is now a widower and two girls have lost their mother in the most brutal of ways because of one individual.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    This is obviously right and they feed off each other's nihilistic pseudo-religious hate and cult of violence agendas.

    Far more worrying are the supposedly 'mainstream' politicians like Gove, Duncan-Smith, Johnson and Farage who appear hell bent on uncritically accepting the bigoted, lying anti-immigrant agendas created by these fringe groups and spouting them out, aided by far right people in fake-respectable roles served up to the media, like the unctuous liars in Migration Watch.

    The same kinds of things went on in Weimar Germany.

    Look the far right is crazy and the far left is crazy, But Farage tier right is not crazy while you may not agree with them they are not Racist and do not lie or bend the truth any more than any other politician, you here the wage gap or 1 in 3 women are raped at uni when that can and has been debunked many times. There is a difference between saying that We need to have limits on migration and make sure we have skilled and working migrants over to lets kill all migrants they are all evil. as the second one no sensible person right wing or left would ever say.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Far more worrying are the supposedly 'mainstream' politicians like Gove, Duncan-Smith, Johnson and Farage who appear hell bent on uncritically accepting the bigoted, lying anti-immigrant agendas created by these fringe groups and spouting them out, aided by far right people in fake-respectable roles served up to the media, like the unctuous liars in Migration Watch.

    The same kinds of things went on in Weimar Germany.
    That's your view on it. An alternate view would be that the politicians you've mentioned would have no need to play the immigration card had New Labour not encouraged migration as much as it did.

    Even Peter Mandelson has admitted so:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...on-admits.html

    It could be argued that far right groups would have less traction had migration been kept to a lower amount.
    You might have no problem with large amounts of immigration but there's plenty of individuals out there that do across the political spectrum. Many in the North of England & the Midlands, which has been traditional Labour heartland are leaning towards Brexit.

    I don't like that this thread about an MP bring brutally shot has turned out like this; the blame falls mainly on the perpetrator's shoulders. I do agree the far right are also partly to blame - but years of high levels of immigration cannot be ignored either as this gives the far right support unfortunately.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    Farage has been saying violence is the next step, so while this incident may not be related to UKIP, he is certainly doing his bit to foster tension and hatred.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    Look the far right is crazy and the far left is crazy, But Farage tier right is not crazy while you may not agree with them they are not Racist and do not lie or bend the truth any more than any other politician, you here the wage gap or 1 in 3 women are raped at uni when that can and has been debunked many times. There is a difference between saying that We need to have limits on migration and make sure we have skilled and working migrants over to lets kill all migrants they are all evil. as the second one no sensible person right wing or left would ever say.
    There's a difference to educated and/or rational people. The problem is (and Farage knows this well and is good at using it) that many less educated or politically uninformed people react extremely to racist agendas and in this country, immigration = race. Therefore Farage knows perfectly well that this will whip up a hostile atmosphere, indeed, he wants that.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    Look the far right is crazy and the far left is crazy, But Farage tier right is not crazy while you may not agree with them they are not Racist and do not lie or bend the truth any more than any other politician, you here the wage gap or 1 in 3 women are raped at uni when that can and has been debunked many times. There is a difference between saying that We need to have limits on migration and make sure we have skilled and working migrants over to lets kill all migrants they are all evil. as the second one no sensible person right wing or left would ever say.
    I second this. I dislike UKIP, but that's because I'm mostly centre-left in my political views. If you want a genuinely racist party then try BNP or yes, Britain First.

    I'm also extremely uneasy with powerful words like "racism" being thrown around like confectionery by politicians who want to discredit other parties or campaigns. There's a definite difference between wanting to control a country's borders (for economic reasons alongside others) and discriminating based on skin colour etc. You could perhaps stretch UKIP to call it xenophobic, but I don't believe racism is the issue here.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Josb)
    I agree, that's pretty ridiculous.



    UKIP isn't really far right. There is very little difference with the right of the Conservative Party. Britain First or the BNP are far right.
    My point about UKIP and Farage is that they normalise racism. They make far-right opinions mainstream. Whenever they are challenged on this, they regularly go 'ah it's just the PC liberal social justice warriors banning opinions'. Rather than acknowledge that saying you don't want to live next to Romanians is racist, or admit that producing a poster reminiscent of Nazi propaganda is racist, they blame everyone else for taking offence.

    Of course people can have legitimate concerns over immigration and at times PC culture does go too far. But UKIP and Farage don't try and address people's concerns, they exploit them. I'm sorry but Farage is just simply a racist. I don't buy the 'I just have legitimate concerns over immigration' line. He's a bigot.

    People like Farage encourage others to hate politicians and think of them all as dirty, greedy liars trying to 'steal their country' and 'give their jobs to immigrants'.

    It's no surprise that when they wind people up like this, you get increasing violence.

    We are now a country which has political assassinations.
    I don't blame UKIP or Farage for this attack. But I do blame them for establishing a culture that normalises and embraces far-right, bigoted views by blaming others for taking offence.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I think it's clear that the atmosphere of hate now widely circulating and considered acceptable (just look at many TSR threads for examples)
    This atmosphere has always be prevalent and political violence was even more fierce before. IRA bombs and unions' strikes under Thatcher are shockingly violent by our current standards.

    I can safely say that this lunatic never went on TSR and he probably didn't watch the news, or only considered it as propaganda. He's the kind of conspiracy theorist who hates anything related to the government ("white genocide" etc.). He would have killed her, Brexit campaign or not.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    There's a difference to educated and/or rational people. The problem is (and Farage knows this well and is good at using it) that many less educated or politically uninformed people react extremely to racist agendas and in this country, immigration = race. Therefore Farage knows perfectly well that this will whip up a hostile atmosphere, indeed, he wants that.
    Have you seen the BNP political leaflets? They're far, far more emotive and hostile than anything I've seen coming from UKIP.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Tempest II)
    That's your view on it. An alternate view would be that the politicians you've mentioned would have no need to play the immigration card had New Labour not encouraged migration as much as it did.

    Even Peter Mandelson has admitted so:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...on-admits.html

    It could be argued that far right groups would have less traction had migration been kept to a lower amount.
    You might have no problem with large amounts of immigration but there's plenty of individuals out there that do across the political spectrum. Many in the North of England & the Midlands, which has been traditional Labour heartland are leaning towards Brexit.

    I don't like that this thread about an MP bring brutally shot has turned out like this; the blame falls mainly on the perpetrator's shoulders. I do agree the far right are also partly to blame - but years of high levels of immigration cannot be ignored either as this gives the far right support unfortunately.
    I think you're underestimating the extent to which Farage et al have distorted the facts.

    For example, the biggest group by far of EU migrants coming in are from - wait for it - France. Yes, the dangerous, wild, uneducated and threatening French. They have invaded London 'en masse' as we say here. :teehee:

    Yet to listen to Farage, you would assume that 100m people, the dregs of E. Europe (to use a popular UKIP discussion phrase) are coming here right away,

    Another point is education - Farage and that late-comer to race agendas, Boris, would have us believe that a tidal wave of moronic empty headed people are coming, lacking any skills whatever. The truth is the exact opposite - they have a much higher rate of degrees than the general population.

    Then there's the whole 'drag on the NHS, drag on benefits' agenda - yet overwhelmingly the evidence shows that migrants from Europe do not in the main claim benefits or use the NHS.

    Truth has become horrible disconnected from reality and the mass media share the blame too. Jo Cox was murdered because of all this. Some working class people from limited educational backgrounds are easily triggered into rage by misinformation which sounds convincing to them. There's been a tidal wave of misinformation.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    My point about UKIP and Farage is that they normalise racism. They make far-right opinions mainstream. Whenever they are challenged on this, they regularly go 'ah it's just the PC liberal social justice warriors banning opinions'. Rather than acknowledge that saying you don't want to live next to Romanians is racist, or admit that producing a poster reminiscent of Nazi propaganda is racist, they blame everyone else for taking offence.

    Of course people can have legitimate concerns over immigration and at times PC culture does go too far. But UKIP and Farage don't try and address people's concerns, they exploit them. I'm sorry but Farage is just simply a racist. I don't buy the 'I just have legitimate concerns over immigration' line. He's a bigot.

    People like Farage encourage others to hate politicians and think of them all as dirty, greedy liars trying to 'steal their country' and 'give their jobs to immigrants'.

    It's no surprise that when they wind people up like this, you get increasing violence.

    We are now a country which has political assassinations.
    I don't blame UKIP or Farage for this attack. But I do blame them for establishing a culture that normalises and embraces far-right, bigoted views by blaming others for taking offence.
    Isn't not wanting to live next to Romanians xenophobia? I'm pretty sure they're of the same race as many racists.

    Also, with three main parties admitting themselves they don't really have a means of slowing down immigration, I can sort of see where Farage is coming from and why he might take a different view. It doesn't mean I have a problem with immigration in the slightest. I actually want us to be able to take in people from outside Europe rather than discriminating against workers because they're African or Indian or Chinese.

    It also doesn't mean I like Farage though, haha. I dislike him as much as the rest of our country's politicians.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AnnieGakusei)
    Have you seen the BNP political leaflets? They're far, far more emotive and hostile than anything I've seen coming from UKIP.
    Farage is always clever and hovers just short of the most egregious statements whilst making it clear that he totally believes all the **** chucked at migrants by the right wing tabloids, etc, who are equally culpable in this.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    What's your favourite Christmas sweets?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.