TSR Med Students' Society Part VI

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Four things that unis think matter more than league tables 08-12-2016
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    (Original post by Ghotay)
    It's mostly emotionally difficult because they're running around seeing their own patients totally happy, and we stand next to them feeling like mugs wondering why the hell we signed on to do a 5 year degree, and will be earning less than them for a couple of years.

    We don't have any official interaction, we just sometimes happen to be placed on the same areas. That said, they don't have any official in-hospital teaching so apparently some of them have been trying to attend our teaching which I have kind of mixed feelings about

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    Govt policy in a nutshell, de-skill. I'd be pissed off as **** in your position.

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    (Original post by Ghotay)
    Biiiig hoo-ha about physician's associate students in the conmon room today.

    It's difficult to work alongside them because they seem WAY more confident in the clinical environment than us, but then a lot of them are much older and have previously worked as nurses etc. And their course is much more clinically focused, and intense. But some people were worried that confidence may be misplaced as they can't possibly have the same depth of knowledge from a much shorter course

    Lots of debate, but the one thing we could all agree on is that they shouldn't be wearing stethoscopes round their necks!
    In my worthless opinion, as long as they're not taking all the cream of the training without putting in the graft/***** work, then I'm glad to have another set of hands. Assuming they have equal liability and they're not hiding under the coattails of a medical practitioner, that is.

    It used to piss me off as a house officer on call, when the noctors were busy seeing patients and I was left to write their regular medications because they could only prescribe a set formulation.

    Just remember, they will be a ward ***** for the rest of their careers. Conversely, you will soon be the registrar running the department.
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    There are PAs at my uni and they sometimes join our lectures and seminars, I don't mind the extra pair of hands when I'll be on the wards

    Also any recommendations for books/online resources for Gastro, Renal, Urology and endocrinology and neuro, ENT, opthalomogy (can't spell )? Gonna be a fun year
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    (Original post by Etomidate)
    In my worthless opinion, as long as they're not taking all the cream of the training without putting in the graft/***** work, then I'm glad to have another set of hands. Assuming they have equal liability and they're not hiding under the coattails of a medical practitioner, that is.

    It used to piss me off as a house officer on call, when the noctors were busy seeing patients and I was left to write their regular medications because they could only prescribe a set formulation.

    Just remember, they will be a ward ***** for the rest of their careers. Conversely, you will soon be the registrar running the department.
    They obviously are though, my understanding was that for anything mildly risky their advice is to "contact senior medical help."

    The use for me for HCA's is for general support staff, an extra pair of hands, reassuring patients, reminders maybe if there's an equipment shortage, or a delay using the CT, or a drug shortage. My understanding was that they aren't really for what I've suggested.
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    Hello Medics

    Im looking for a study partner to practice OSCE with for in the summer over the skype
    Anyone interested?
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    We have about 50 PA's in our year, they join some lectures, honestly never heard of them before my 1st day, someone care to explain what they are/do??
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    (Original post by Zain-A)
    We have about 50 PA's in our year, they join some lectures, honestly never heard of them before my 1st day, someone care to explain what they are/do??
    They are trained to:

    taking medical histories
    performing examinations
    diagnosing illnesses
    analysing test results
    developing management plans.


    https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/exp...cian-associate
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    (Original post by Zain-A)
    We have about 50 PA's in our year, they join some lectures, honestly never heard of them before my 1st day, someone care to explain what they are/do??
    Cheaper(ish) not-quite-doctor replacements. I believe you have to have a relevant biomed/HCP degree before taking the course, the idea is that they'll be semi-independent practitioners but still quite happily take away training opportunities from junior doctors whilst running to them when the **** hits the fan and work "alongside" the medical team. They'll also have the advantage of not having to change jobs every few months, so can build a better bond with a particular hospital/team. And get paid better than a foundation doctor.
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    (Original post by Helenia)
    Cheaper(ish) not-quite-doctor replacements. I believe you have to have a relevant biomed/HCP degree before taking the course, the idea is that they'll be semi-independent practitioners but still quite happily take away training opportunities from junior doctors whilst running to them when the **** hits the fan and work "alongside" the medical team. They'll also have the advantage of not having to change jobs every few months, so can build a better bond with a particular hospital/team. And get paid better than a foundation doctor.
    Can see the attitude towards them aint so positive then... I can see the reasoning behind them but I would rather have more fully trained docs and nurses on a ward tbh
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    (Original post by Helenia)
    Cheaper(ish) not-quite-doctor replacements. I believe you have to have a relevant biomed/HCP degree before taking the course, the idea is that they'll be semi-independent practitioners but still quite happily take away training opportunities from junior doctors whilst running to them when the **** hits the fan and work "alongside" the medical team. They'll also have the advantage of not having to change jobs every few months, so can build a better bond with a particular hospital/team. And get paid better than a foundation doctor.
    The area you have striked seems to be the largest area of peoples' concern. I have heard of similar conflicts with Nurse Practitioners training to assist in surgery. Having said that the nurse Practitioners I worked with in SAU were brilliant. Doing the same job but for the surgical stuff much better than I could as an F1 when only there for 2 months, so invaluable to the team. Although yes, when SHTF or medical problems reared their heads I would be called. Although it was slightly annoying with the few that couldn't prescribe as you would have to duplicate work (I am not going to prescribe without checking myself) and they couldn't do TTOs as a result.

    I haven't worked with PAs but Have worked with CAs. These are invaluable. But most of their job is venipuncture / cannulation / catheterisation / ABGs / long lines. Which is a godsend in terms of lifting workload. If only they could also do TTOs... It did get to piss taking though when someone suggested they should also take request forms to relevant departments I mean come on!
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    (Original post by Mrs House)
    There are PAs at my uni and they sometimes join our lectures and seminars, I don't mind the extra pair of hands when I'll be on the wards

    Also any recommendations for books/online resources for Gastro, Renal, Urology and endocrinology and neuro, ENT, opthalomogy (can't spell )? Gonna be a fun year
    Essential Surgery for surgical placement

    I just would go to the library and browse through books on those specialties, Oxford Handbook and Kumar and Clark plus a 2 week loan of something colourful simple did me tbh

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    (Original post by Mrs House)
    There are PAs at my uni and they sometimes join our lectures and seminars, I don't mind the extra pair of hands when I'll be on the wards

    Also any recommendations for books/online resources for Gastro, Renal, Urology and endocrinology and neuro, ENT, opthalomogy (can't spell )? Gonna be a fun year
    Also, keep an anatomy book for neuro

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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    Also, keep an anatomy book for neuro

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    Thank you!!
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    (Original post by crazylemon)
    The area you have striked seems to be the largest area of peoples' concern. I have heard of similar conflicts with Nurse Practitioners training to assist in surgery. Having said that the nurse Practitioners I worked with in SAU were brilliant. Doing the same job but for the surgical stuff much better than I could as an F1 when only there for 2 months, so invaluable to the team. Although yes, when SHTF or medical problems reared their heads I would be called. Although it was slightly annoying with the few that couldn't prescribe as you would have to duplicate work (I am not going to prescribe without checking myself) and they couldn't do TTOs as a result.

    I haven't worked with PAs but Have worked with CAs. These are invaluable. But most of their job is venipuncture / cannulation / catheterisation / ABGs / long lines. Which is a godsend in terms of lifting workload. If only they could also do TTOs... It did get to piss taking though when someone suggested they should also take request forms to relevant departments I mean come on!
    What are CAs? Definitely agree that assistance with procedures is welcome (provided they're not causing juniors to miss out on training opportunities) and as for taking forms down to departments or not - is it any better to waste a junior doctor's time doing this? Hopefully with the expansion of online ordering this sort of waste of time will be reduced - once they can get a system that works, of course!

    I completely agree that ANPs are very good in general - as are SCPs and I'm sure PAs will be. But everyone always says "oh, they're so much more experienced than the junior doctors, they can do the job much better than an FY1 who's only been doing it for 2 months." Of course they can - I wonder how they'd compare at 2 months into the job though? They have the huge advantage of not having to rotate all the time, so they get familiar with one hospital and its practices, are a more familiar face to consultants and other staff (one of my big bugbears when I attended a talk on PAs by one of the doctors setting up a university PA course was that he said "I never bother learning my juniors' names any more because they go so quickly" - that's not our fault and doesn't mean we are valueless!)

    If they really could do everything a junior doctor can, why do we bother going to med school for 5+ years?
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    It would definitely be nice if there was someone on the ward to take care all of the admin crap, so that I could get on with using my brain or learning new skills. I think I spend half my day on the phone, being on hold, or chasing people. That's where the shortfall is and where auxiliary support might be helpful; not in needing someone to go to theatre or do clerkings - I'd like to do that myself thanks.

    But then again, if universities marketed the PA course as essentially "the worst bits of junior hospital medicine, for the rest of your life", I think people would think twice before applying.
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    (Original post by Helenia)
    What are CAs? Definitely agree that assistance with procedures is welcome (provided they're not causing juniors to miss out on training opportunities) and as for taking forms down to departments or not - is it any better to waste a junior doctor's time doing this? Hopefully with the expansion of online ordering this sort of waste of time will be reduced - once they can get a system that works, of course!

    I completely agree that ANPs are very good in general - as are SCPs and I'm sure PAs will be. But everyone always says "oh, they're so much more experienced than the junior doctors, they can do the job much better than an FY1 who's only been doing it for 2 months." Of course they can - I wonder how they'd compare at 2 months into the job though? They have the huge advantage of not having to rotate all the time, so they get familiar with one hospital and its practices, are a more familiar face to consultants and other staff (one of my big bugbears when I attended a talk on PAs by one of the doctors setting up a university PA course was that he said "I never bother learning my juniors' names any more because they go so quickly" - that's not our fault and doesn't mean we are valueless!)

    If they really could do everything a junior doctor can, why do we bother going to med school for 5+ years?

    Clinicians Assistants/Associates. Sort of like PAs but no degree is involved as far as I can ascertain. The requests issue I feel is one of respect. it is a completely POINTLESS AND UNNECESSARY task. The solution is not to make them do it. The solution is to bloods speed up and make an online ordering system. I really dislike the idea of handing a lack all my CT/MRI/ENDO/USS requests to place to the right boxes in the hospital.

    Yes, that is an issue. They are more experienced initially at least in that specific niche. That makes them really ****ing useful. If the fact I work alongside them means I can spend time doing*something else educational then All for it. Heck most days I would settle for*leaves on time. If they get more teaching because 'worth it to the department because the skills stay here' then I hope the consultants that think that is a good idea accept they might not be called at 2am overnight by juniors because they haven't learnt because the ANP that only works 8-6 got all the teaching. As long as sensibly used I am pro the idea of PAs. But if they become a cheaper 'noctor' that doesn't do on calls/weekends/gets all the training leaving the Junior all the **** and night shifts then yeah. Not impressed.

    On names....Well it takes me to the end of probably the 2nd month of a rotation to remember all me fellow F1/SHO names. I am just REALLY bad at names.*
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    (Original post by Helenia)
    (one of my big bugbears when I attended a talk on PAs by one of the doctors setting up a university PA course was that he said "I never bother learning my juniors' names any more because they go so quickly" - that's not our fault and doesn't mean we are valueless!)
    God that is so ****ing dispiriting
    #3

    Completely irrelevant to the PA discussion, but anyone know whether/how students can get OpenAthens accounts for BNF apps?

    On PAs though, think some clearer legislation would help. There aren't any clear laws about them ATM, right?
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Completely irrelevant to the PA discussion, but anyone know whether/how students can get OpenAthens accounts for BNF apps?

    On PAs though, think some clearer legislation would help. There aren't any clear laws about them ATM, right?
    I am still forgetting the anonymous thing.

    I'm gonna tots be amazing with check boxes
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Completely irrelevant to the PA discussion, but anyone know whether/how students can get OpenAthens accounts for BNF apps?

    On PAs though, think some clearer legislation would help. There aren't any clear laws about them ATM, right?
    for our uni, they registered us with openathens so we could use the bnf app. quite handy.
    maybe asking your pharm lead or any modules lead?
 
 
 
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