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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Yes, ISIS do brutal things and it is partly justified through the brutality of the Quran. No one can deny that. But in a world where the excessive majority of Muslims are being persecuted, hated, and even killed (just like in New York), all of this hatred accumulates and only becomes a catalyst for further radicalisation. We need to grow up and realise that our problems are not the fault of Muslims, and attack ISIS for staining a religion whose followers are decent enough to ignore its ills. ISIS are actively legitimising hateful feelings among Muslims, and these hateful feelings come from a whole host of sources - and it is never a heart-filled desire to help Islam, its them hating people because their lives are uprooted by a catastrophic event in their lives. Its the exact same process with Trump in the USA, the presence of a legitimate man running for president who suddenly is saying "its OK to hate other races" or "your problems are the fault of other races", it legitimises the average racist man's views, gives him confidence to act patriotically in response. Its a similar process for ISIS, but a smaller catchment volume because many people acknowledge that ISIS are just thugs.
    Sorry, how many Muslims have been killed in NY in comparison to those killed by ISIS? And how many people have Muslims killed in comparison to us Europeans?
    ''Staining a religion''. The religion is stained without Isis. Again - have you ever even read the Quran? There are countless violent commands against nonbelievers, violence against women, etc. I could go on.
    Attacking ISIS will not help at all! Hamas will still exist, Boko Haram will still exist, and many more groups will form soon after ISIS's downfall. Can you not see that the problem stretches deeper than ISIS? ISIS is not ''legitimising''; the Quran is, and their prophets are, because they are giving these violent commands.
    We are talking about a religion that uses STONING for adultery. No other religion has that. All other religions have progressed from this frankly trogloditic way of life.
    Perhaps this is why Muslims move to the West? Because their own countries are in political and religious turmoil. In other words, our way of life, our WESTERN way of life is more acceptable for them. And if they are moving here, then they have an obligation to follow the WESTERN way of life, because this is not their land, and are we not doing them a favour by economically saving them, as well as saving their lives?
    Give me an actual quote from Trump saying that it's ''ok to hate other races''. I simply do not believe that.
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    (Original post by DanGG)
    Give me an actual quote from Trump saying that it's ''ok to hate other races''. I simply do not believe that.
    alevelstress thinks it is perfectly ok to hate other races, as long as you don't take that hate into the public sphere.
    ikr, the irony is almost unbearable.
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    (Original post by DanGG)
    Sorry, how many Muslims have been killed in NY in comparison to those killed by ISIS? And how many people have Muslims killed in comparison to us Europeans?
    ''Staining a religion''. The religion is stained without Isis. Again - have you ever even read the Quran? There are countless violent commands against nonbelievers, violence against women, etc. I could go on.
    Attacking ISIS will not help at all! Hamas will still exist, Boko Haram will still exist, and many more groups will form soon after ISIS's downfall. Can you not see that the problem stretches deeper than ISIS? ISIS is not ''legitimising''; the Quran is, and their prophets are, because they are giving these violent commands.
    We are talking about a religion that uses STONING for adultery. No other religion has that. All other religions have progressed from this frankly trogloditic way of life.
    Perhaps this is why Muslims move to the West? Because their own countries are in political and religious turmoil. In other words, our way of life, our WESTERN way of life is more acceptable for them. And if they are moving here, then they have an obligation to follow the WESTERN way of life, because this is not their land, and are we not doing them a favour by economically saving them, as well as saving their lives?
    Give me an actual quote from Trump saying that it's ''ok to hate other races''. I simply do not believe that.
    The point is that innocent Muslims are suffering unnecessarily as a result. ISIS being evil doesn't cancel it out.

    And I've read the Quran, and all I can gather from it is either we live in a world of 1.6 billion poor followers of Islam, or the excessively vast majority of followers have ignored the violent parts and have made their religion compatible with the 21st century in their respective communities.

    Hamas, Boko Haram, etc, they never made the media spotlight like ISIS did, so their capacity to draw in and radicalise Muslims is a lot lower. The sooner ISIS is destroyed, the sooner they will stop being able to reach out on social media and capture the attention of some hateful Muslims who may find comfort in their radical thoughts. Furthermore ISIS have been considerably easier to join, a western Muslim wanting to join boko haram or al-shabab is in an entirely different situation - ISIS attracted the support of western hateful Muslims, the others are fighting their own internal conflict without worldwide interests.

    And the vast majority of Muslims in western countries are living perfectly in accordance with our laws - its just the media likes to inflate issues of immigration and Islam because they know that incriminating other cultures with our own problems sells well with the average racist in our country. There are problems, but any problems caused by the migrants or refugees are caused at a much greater rate by the natives.

    And I never said Trump said explicitly that its OK to be racist, but the fact that he is openly condemning other races provides a legitimate voice for the thousands of racist people in America - their views are legitimised in a scenario when they would otherwise feel out-of-place or harmful in venting their views.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    The point is that innocent Muslims are suffering unnecessarily as a result. ISIS being evil doesn't cancel it out.

    And I've read the Quran, and all I can gather from it is either we live in a world of 1.6 billion poor followers of Islam, or the excessively vast majority of followers have ignored the violent parts and have made their religion compatible with the 21st century in their respective communities.

    Hamas, Boko Haram, etc, they never made the media spotlight like ISIS did, so their capacity to draw in and radicalise Muslims is a lot lower. The sooner ISIS is destroyed, the sooner they will stop being able to reach out on social media and capture the attention of some hateful Muslims who may find comfort in their radical thoughts. Furthermore ISIS have been considerably easier to join, a western Muslim wanting to join boko haram or al-shabab is in an entirely different situation - ISIS attracted the support of western hateful Muslims, the others are fighting their own internal conflict without worldwide interests.

    And the vast majority of Muslims in western countries are living perfectly in accordance with our laws - its just the media likes to inflate issues of immigration and Islam because they know that incriminating other cultures with our own problems sells well with the average racist in our country. There are problems, but any problems caused by the migrants or refugees are caused at a much greater rate by the natives.

    And I never said Trump said explicitly that its OK to be racist, but the fact that he is openly condemning other races provides a legitimate voice for the thousands of racist people in America - their views are legitimised in a scenario when they would otherwise feel out-of-place or harmful in venting their views.
    The argument isn't "all Muslims are extremists", it's that Muslims disproportionately subscribe to fundamentalist beliefs based on their holy book.
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    (Original post by Seelowe)
    The argument isn't "all Muslims are extremists", it's that Muslims disproportionately subscribe to fundamentalist beliefs based on their holy book.
    If that's the case, then why don't the 1.6 billion Muslims worldwide rise up and behead non-believers?

    Not to mention the fact that the Quran was written 1500 years ago for a completely different type of society. The majority of Muslims have moved on, but as what happened in New York shows, they are suffering because of both xenophobic bigots and also terrorists. Terrorism has killed more Muslims than any other group combined, but apparently the ideology is worth criticism and not the terrorists who cherry-pick the violent parts to justify their murderous actions.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    If that's the case, then why don't the 1.6 billion Muslims worldwide rise up and behead non-believers?

    Not to mention the fact that the Quran was written 1500 years ago for a completely different type of society. The majority of Muslims have moved on, but as what happened in New York shows, they are suffering because of both xenophobic bigots and also terrorists. Terrorism has killed more Muslims than any other group combined, but apparently the ideology is worth criticism and not the terrorists who cherry-pick the violent parts to justify their murderous actions.
    Because most Muslims don't subscribe to those particular beliefs, however, many sympathise with those who do. Also, extremist beliefs fall on a spectrum, and as a group Muslims are further to one end of that spectrum, on average, than Christians or Atheists.

    The majority of Muslims have moved on? Somebody must inform the Islamic countries (who make up the majority of Muslims worldwide), who to this day promote repressive policies such as public executions for homosexuality and imprisonment (even death) for adultery. What happened in New York has not even been confirmed as a terrorist incident, perhaps it's another case of "mental illness" such as the Somalian man who stabbed 6 people in London.

    Most of these terrorists are the ones who are actually following Islamic law most accurately. If you'd bothered to actually look at the teachings contained within the Koran you would see just how violent and barbaric they are.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    The point is that innocent Muslims are suffering unnecessarily as a result. ISIS being evil doesn't cancel it out.

    And I've read the Quran, and all I can gather from it is either we live in a world of 1.6 billion poor followers of Islam, or the excessively vast majority of followers have ignored the violent parts and have made their religion compatible with the 21st century in their respective communities.

    Hamas, Boko Haram, etc, they never made the media spotlight like ISIS did, so their capacity to draw in and radicalise Muslims is a lot lower. The sooner ISIS is destroyed, the sooner they will stop being able to reach out on social media and capture the attention of some hateful Muslims who may find comfort in their radical thoughts. Furthermore ISIS have been considerably easier to join, a western Muslim wanting to join boko haram or al-shabab is in an entirely different situation - ISIS attracted the support of western hateful Muslims, the others are fighting their own internal conflict without worldwide interests.

    And the vast majority of Muslims in western countries are living perfectly in accordance with our laws - its just the media likes to inflate issues of immigration and Islam because they know that incriminating other cultures with our own problems sells well with the average racist in our country. There are problems, but any problems caused by the migrants or refugees are caused at a much greater rate by the natives.

    And I never said Trump said explicitly that its OK to be racist, but the fact that he is openly condemning other races provides a legitimate voice for the thousands of racist people in America - their views are legitimised in a scenario when they would otherwise feel out-of-place or harmful in venting their views.
    1. If you incorrectly assume that Trump said something when he actually didn't is very very wrong. And racist people existed without trump and did their racist things without him. Do you think that all his followers are hardcore racists? That many racists simply do not exist in America!
    2. You mention ''problems caused by natives''. This is rather vague and simply draws criticism without any solid reasons.
    3. Boko Haram and Hamas don't radicalise using media coverage. They don't use bbc news to make other people kidnap a bunch of school girls. What a stretch. These groups use social media and a much more private system. They have links that have nothing to do with the media. The fact is that if you are a prospective member of Boko Haram, you don't get sucked in thanks to Western coverage and media. That is ridiculous.
    4. The vast majority have not followed the violent parts? No way - if you live in any of the Middle Eastern countries, Sharia law applies there in full effect - including the violent parts. And as most Muslims live in the Middle east and Indonesia, most of them follow the violent parts.
    5. Boko Haram and Hamas membership is as high as ISIS.
    6. The media have not positioned themselves with the ''racists''. It is actually much more popular being politically correct, as the BBC, and others have shown. They inflated the exact opposite - that immigrants are good for the UK and all that.
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    (Original post by Seelowe)
    Because most Muslims don't subscribe to those particular beliefs, however, many sympathise with those who do. Also, extremist beliefs fall on a spectrum, and as a group Muslims are further to one end of that spectrum, on average, than Christians or Atheists.

    The majority of Muslims have moved on? Somebody must inform the Islamic countries (who make up the majority of Muslims worldwide), who to this day promote repressive policies such as public executions for homosexuality and imprisonment (even death) for adultery. What happened in New York has not even been confirmed as a terrorist incident, perhaps it's another case of "mental illness" such as the Somalian man who stabbed 6 people in London.

    Most of these terrorists are the ones who are actually following Islamic law most accurately. If you'd bothered to actually look at the teachings contained within the Koran you would see just how violent and barbaric they are.
    Its a myth that they sympathise with terrorists. The largest Gallup poll ever on Muslims (35,000) showed that 93% of all Muslims think that suicide attacks and terrorism is never justified. Of the 7% who do, 100% think that it is only justifiable for political purposes.

    And if you're worried about x% of Muslims thinking that homosexuality should be outlawed, that's their way of life. They were brought up in majorly Muslim countries, so they no doubt believe what the Muslim country purported. Its as meaningless as saying that 80% of all white British people are against child marriage. Its different ways of society.

    The problem only starts to exist when you find that they are willing to act on their beliefs in a harmful way. Its impossible to police thoughts.

    And I have no doubt that stabbing two Muslims outside a mosque is an Islamophobic attack, there's no point in denying it - otherwise they would have stabbed two completely random people.
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    (Original post by DanGG)
    1. If you incorrectly assume that Trump said something when he actually didn't is very very wrong. And racist people existed without trump and did their racist things without him. Do you think that all his followers are hardcore racists? That many racists simply do not exist in America!
    2. You mention ''problems caused by natives''. This is rather vague and simply draws criticism without any solid reasons.
    3. Boko Haram and Hamas don't radicalise using media coverage. They don't use bbc news to make other people kidnap a bunch of school girls. What a stretch. These groups use social media and a much more private system. They have links that have nothing to do with the media. The fact is that if you are a prospective member of Boko Haram, you don't get sucked in thanks to Western coverage and media. That is ridiculous.
    4. The vast majority have not followed the violent parts? No way - if you live in any of the Middle Eastern countries, Sharia law applies there in full effect - including the violent parts. And as most Muslims live in the Middle east and Indonesia, most of them follow the violent parts.
    5. Boko Haram and Hamas membership is as high as ISIS.
    6. The media have not positioned themselves with the ''racists''. It is actually much more popular being politically correct, as the BBC, and others have shown. They inflated the exact opposite - that immigrants are good for the UK and all that.
    Racist feelings are legitimised when you have a person in power indirectly promoting racism. It doesn't mean that racism is born into existence by the presence of this person, it means that it is amplified.

    Problems caused by natives = shootings, stabbings, rape, theft, etc - all of which are done in greater number by the natives than with the immigrants. Its fundamentally bigoted to complain about the proportion of migrants causing it when our own race causes the very same problems in mass.

    "Sharia Law" is a meaningless term. Nowhere is it written in stone that sharia law = hand chopping and throwing gays off roofs. Furthermore 1.6 billion Muslims are evidently non-violent, the fact that a government has violent laws put forward does not mean all Muslims are violent.

    Boko haram membership is less than 10,000, Hamas is around 15,000. ISIS have a minimum of 50,000 members and up to 250,000. Try again.
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    Why do people like you start worthless and unessecary threads like this ? (Bohooo you want some tissues mate ?)
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    (Original post by Pudge666)
    Why do people like you start worthless and unessecary threads like this ? (Bohooo you want some tissues mate ?)
    because two innocent Muslims were shot dead in New York, and I'm certain there will be more attacks just like this - all because of terrorists who don't give a **** about Muslims, and also because of bigoted racists who want to blame their petty problems on a foreign culture
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    (Original post by Mathemagicien)
    Absolutely

    And think about it - if everyone converted to Islam, there'd be no need for terrorism.

    So Islam is the cure for terrorism!

    Checkmate islamophobes
    There are different branches of Islam , sunnies and shias which they tend to fight each other , and let's not forget wahabis in Saudi Arabia who beleaves killing shias will open a pathway to heaven. So yeah its much more complex than we actually think
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Its a myth that they sympathise with terrorists. The largest Gallup poll ever on Muslims (35,000) showed that 93% of all Muslims think that suicide attacks and terrorism is never justified. Of the 7% who do, 100% think that it is only justifiable for political purposes.

    And if you're worried about x% of Muslims thinking that homosexuality should be outlawed, that's their way of life. They were brought up in majorly Muslim countries, so they no doubt believe what the Muslim country purported. Its as meaningless as saying that 80% of all white British people are against child marriage. Its different ways of society.

    The problem only starts to exist when you find that they are willing to act on their beliefs in a harmful way. Its impossible to police thoughts.

    And I have no doubt that stabbing two Muslims outside a mosque is an Islamophobic attack, there's no point in denying it - otherwise they would have stabbed two completely random people.
    The Gallup poll has real methodological issues. The most comprehensive and reliable polls have been conducted by PewGlobal, ICM, Populus etc. Etc.

    Here are some of the more shocking findings:

    20% of British Muslims sympathise with the 7/7 bombers. (Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html)

    World Public Opinion: 83% of Egyptians approve of attacks on American troops.26% of Indonesians approve of attacks on American troops.26% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on American troops.68% of Moroccans approve of attacks on American troops.90% of Palestinians approve of attacks on American troops.72% of Jordanians approve of attacks on American troops.52% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (39% oppose)A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on American troops.About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
    (Source: http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi..._Feb09_rpt.pdf)

    Pew Research (2010): 15% of Indonesians believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.34% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.

    Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops.
    (Source: http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005...itish-islamist)

    Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).
    (Source: http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old...ns.pdf#page=60)

    Pew Research (2011): 8% of Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (81% never).28% of Egyptian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (38% never). (Source: http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/...for-extremism/)

    Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified. (Source: http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old...ns.pdf#page=60)

    ICM (2014): 16% of all French Muslims support ISIS, including 27% of those aged 18-24. (Source: http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-ci...l-finds-266795)

    Doha Institute (ACRPS) 2014: 10% of Egyptians have a positive (or somewhat positive) view of ISIS as do 10% of Saudis, 13% of Tunisians and 13% of Syrian refugees. On average, 72% of the Arab world has a negative view of ISIS. (Source: http://english.dohainstitute.org/con...7-87f6b1ceba9b)

    Also, you would think it may be a terror attack, but a recent attack on a train by a man shouting "Allahu Akbar" was put down as mere "mental illness" and not as terrorism. Also, I must stress we have no evidence of motive for the New York attack. All we know is that it's a Hispanic man named Oscar Morel
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    because two innocent Muslims were shot dead in New York, and I'm certain there will be more attacks just like this - all because of terrorists who don't give a **** about Muslims, and also because of bigoted racists who want to blame their petty problems on a foreign culture
    Islam is not a race

    in its more literal, Salafi/Wahabi version, it can be blamed for many recent terrorist attacks and, in general, it has caused, all over its existence, civil strife, sectarian wars, oppression of minorities

    a textbook case of a failed religion
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    (Original post by Seelowe)
    The Gallup poll has real methodological issues. The most comprehensive and reliable polls have been conducted by PewGlobal, ICM, Populus etc. Etc.

    Here are some of the more shocking findings:

    20% of British Muslims sympathise with the 7/7 bombers. (Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html)

    World Public Opinion: 83% of Egyptians approve of attacks on American troops.26% of Indonesians approve of attacks on American troops.26% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on American troops.68% of Moroccans approve of attacks on American troops.90% of Palestinians approve of attacks on American troops.72% of Jordanians approve of attacks on American troops.52% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (39% oppose)A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on American troops.About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
    (Source: http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi..._Feb09_rpt.pdf)

    Pew Research (2010): 15% of Indonesians believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.34% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.

    Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops.
    (Source: http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005...itish-islamist)

    Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).
    (Source: http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old...ns.pdf#page=60)

    Pew Research (2011): 8% of Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (81% never).28% of Egyptian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (38% never). (Source: http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/...for-extremism/)

    Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified. (Source: http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old...ns.pdf#page=60)

    ICM (2014): 16% of all French Muslims support ISIS, including 27% of those aged 18-24. (Source: http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-ci...l-finds-266795)

    Doha Institute (ACRPS) 2014: 10% of Egyptians have a positive (or somewhat positive) view of ISIS as do 10% of Saudis, 13% of Tunisians and 13% of Syrian refugees. On average, 72% of the Arab world has a negative view of ISIS. (Source: http://english.dohainstitute.org/con...7-87f6b1ceba9b)

    Also, you would think it may be a terror attack, but a recent attack on a train by a man shouting "Allahu Akbar" was put down as mere "mental illness" and not as terrorism. Also, I must stress we have no evidence of motive for the New York attack.

    Who's to say it isn't an extremist Muslim, like the one who killed the Glasgow shot owner?
    You can link any poll you want, but discriminating against people because of their beliefs fundamentally goes against democracy.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    Islam is not a race

    in its more literal, Salafi/Wahabi version, it can be blamed for many recent terrorist attacks and, in general, it has caused, all over its existence, civil strife, sectarian wars, oppression of minorities

    a textbook case of a failed religion
    Never said Islam is a race

    And I don't think a religion with 1.6 billion active followers is a 'failed religion'

    and no, you can't blame it for terrorist attacks - when clearly they are almost all done in response to political unrest or are done to achieve a specific political purpose, not because the perpetrators want to 'defend Islam'.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    You can link any poll you want, but discriminating against people because of their beliefs fundamentally goes against democracy.
    I never advocated that.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Never said Islam is a race

    And I don't think a religion with 1.6 billion active followers is a 'failed religion'

    and no, you can't blame it for terrorist attacks - when clearly they are almost all done in response to political unrest or are done to achieve a specific political purpose, not because the perpetrators want to 'defend Islam'.
    Without the belief in Martyrdom these attacks would not occur. Islam is a fundamental part of these attacks.
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    (Original post by Seelowe)
    Without the belief in Martyrdom these attacks would not occur. Islam is a fundamental part of these attacks.
    they would occur, just not with suicide bombers and instead they would place bombs just like the IRA did
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    they would occur, just not with suicide bombers and instead they would place bombs just like the IRA did
    Comparing the IRA to Islamic terror is fairly ridiculous. To start with, the IRA generally attacked military targets, and if it attacked a civilian target it would give an hours warning. Secondly, the IRA were primarily concerned with a unified Ireland, whereas the goals of Islamic fundamentalists are varying, with one common connector. They are all done in the name of Islam, in the name of Jihad, in the name of Muhammad and in the name of martyrdom. Without the violent teachings of the Koran, the number of these terror attacks would be slashed.

    Not only that, but the violent beliefs promoted in the Koran lend themselves to such activity.

    Three weeks ago, when a priest had his throat slit in Normandy, and his murderers gave a lecture on Islam and Sharia law, what were their motives? We could try and go into depth, claiming socio-economic issues or we could perhaps claim they were covert revolutionaries who were actually well versed in middle eastern affairs. However, the most likely answer is that they were motivated by a most violent religion into committing a most violent act.
 
 
 
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