Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    (Original post by nebelbon)
    I did say leave were guilty of the same thing.
    Brexit and Leave are two names for the same campaign, no?
    • Community Assistant
    • Wiki Support Team
    • Political Ambassador
    • PS Reviewer
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Community Assistant
    Wiki Support Team
    Political Ambassador
    PS Reviewer
    (Original post by RayApparently)
    European Federalists are a minority. And actually the people who invoke Hitler are worse.
    In terms purely of the issue of sovereignty, they're not worse - Hitler tried and in many cases initially succeeded in stripping people of their nationhood, democracy, and freedom in much the same way that the EU is and will do. While overall Hitler's actions of course far outweigh those of the EU, on the issue of sovereignty, those who compare the EU to Hitler are no better or worse than European Federalists who seek to do to Europe what Hitler did on the sovereignty front (and here only on the sovereignty front).

    (Original post by nebelbon)
    I agree with those points, however there are some things that are stopping me from being completely leave. I'm all for the freedom of movement, to a certain extent, as it has proved itself useful to myself and many I know. I'm also quite certain that I would lose my job within a few years of leaving the EU which would be a bit annoying. It is also the uncertainty, but that also draws me to leave.
    The problem for me with the freedom of movement is not that people are coming per se. The issue I have is one of numbers - we're seeing the migration figures at all time highs and we have to be realistic as to how we can cope both with ensuring that we maintain our own standard of living and ensuring that the standard of living we offer to others is acceptable. If we see schools overcrowded for example, you can argue that it may be down to schools not being built, not enough teachers being trained, but we have to look at numbers and try to control them to protect that standard of living for all.

    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Where is her death being used as a 'distasteful tool'?

    Besides, I'd want my death to contribute to the ideals I believed in during my life.
    Twitter mainly and you may do, but you are not Jo Cox and none of us, even her husband, can profess to fully know what she would have wanted.
    Offline

    18
    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Brexit and Leave are two names for the same campaign, no?
    Yes... I'm confused, but I'm agreeing with your point.
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    (Original post by nebelbon)
    Yes... I'm confused, but I'm agreeing with your point.
    I see, thanks (I think).
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by toronto353)
    Twitter mainly and you may do, but you are not Jo Cox and none of us, even her husband, can profess to fully know what she would have wanted.
    We have also had the Mail on Sunday republishing one of her last pro remain letters and Cameron telling people to read it, and the Stronger In campaign emailing people telling them to read it;
    • Community Assistant
    • Wiki Support Team
    • Political Ambassador
    • PS Reviewer
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Community Assistant
    Wiki Support Team
    Political Ambassador
    PS Reviewer
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    We have also had the Mail on Sunday republishing one of her last pro remain letters and Cameron telling people to read it, and the Stronger In campaign emailing people telling them to read it;
    Thanks - I hadn't spotted that. It underlines the point that no-one in the Brexit campaign is seeking to use Jo Cox's death as a campaigning tool and that Stronger In should know better.
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    (Original post by toronto353)
    In terms purely of the issue of sovereignty, they're not worse - Hitler tried and in many cases initially succeeded in stripping people of their nationhood, democracy, and freedom in much the same way that the EU is and will do. While overall Hitler's actions of course far outweigh those of the EU, on the issue of sovereignty, those who compare the EU to Hitler are no better or worse than European Federalists who seek to do to Europe what Hitler did on the sovereignty front (and here only on the sovereignty front).


    Twitter mainly and you may do, but you are not Jo Cox and none of us, even her husband, can profess to fully know what she would have wanted.
    European Federalism is a legitimate political position which one can argue for (I personally won't) with civility and intelligence. Saying that the EU is 'like Hitler' or 'worse than Hitler' is a stupid, offensive position held by idiots or people trying to sway the opinions of idiots. You might as well say Hitler was emulating the United Kingdom or the United States or the League of Nations or the Kingdom of Italy.

    So the personal opinions of individuals (who may have been genuinely swayed to vote a certain way by the tragedy) and not anything official. Ok then.
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    We have also had the Mail on Sunday republishing one of her last pro remain letters and Cameron telling people to read it, and the Stronger In campaign emailing people telling them to read it;
    Because she would have preferred her writings be shielded from public view in the event of her death?
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Because she would have preferred her writings be shielded from public view in the event of her death?
    Her writing would be in the public domain by uploading them to the internet, forcing her writings on voters by telling voters to read her work is politicising her death by trying to capitalise on the sympathy vote.
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    Her writing would be in the public domain by uploading them to the internet, forcing her writings on voters by telling voters to read her work is politicising her death by trying to capitalise on the sympathy vote.
    It is trying to get the sympathy vote. And it is distasteful. But her writings are also being widely reported by the media - an inevitability given the circumstances of her death. A politician killed by a politically-motivated lunatic can't avoid having their death 'politicised'.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by RayApparently)
    It is trying to get the sympathy vote. And it is distasteful. But her writings are also being widely reported by the media - an inevitability given the circumstances of her death. A politician killed by a politically-motivated lunatic can't avoid having their death 'politicised'.
    The respectable thing would be to pay a tribute but then forget about her in the same way all other dead celebrities are soon forgotten about, making her a martyr for not voting to leave the EU is contemptible.
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    The respectable thing would be to pay a tribute but then forget about her in the same way all other dead celebrities are soon forgotten about, making her a martyr for not voting to leave the EU is contemptible.
    I don't think forgetting about her would be respectable. It certainly wouldn't be respectful.
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Because she would have preferred her writings be shielded from public view in the event of her death?
    How is not republishing something that was recently published shielding from public view? You're just trying to justify using her death to try to win the referendum after threatening to ruin the economy if we leave didn't work.
    • Very Important Poster
    • Welcome Squad
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    Very Important Poster
    Welcome Squad
    (Original post by toronto353)
    Again with the vast assumptions about either camp. I've met remain supporters who idolise the EU and behave as if they were religious fundamentalists unable to accept that the EU isn't perfect. I mean, to give one example, look at how Aph views the EU. You really do your argument no favours when you try to generalise.



    See above. I've met people who refuse to listen to criticism about the EU, so there are similar people on both sides.
    One, I would appreciate a tag when you cite me...
    Two, I'd hardly say that I think the EU is absolutely 100% perfect...
    (Original post by toronto353)
    Not at all - those who hate the EU and say it's worse than Hitler, for example, are no better or worse than those who are wedded to the idea of making us into a province of a country called the EU, in the process, stripping us of our nationhood, our democracy, and our freedoms.
    WOW!!! That's an emotive argument if I ever heard one. How on earth are democracy and freedom being lost to an EU superstate?! You sound like a Scottish nationalist right now...
    Also it's called USE not EU
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by RayApparently)
    I don't think forgetting about her would be respectable. It certainly wouldn't be respectful.
    Both are appropriate adjectives, however, there is a point when a constant focus on one person changes the initial actions from paying a tribute to Joe, to lessening her name by using her a posthumous mascot in a political campaign.
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    How is not republishing something that was recently published shielding from public view? You're just trying to justify using her death to try to win the referendum after threatening to ruin the economy if we leave didn't work.
    What I mean is that wouldn't you want your writing and ideas to be promoted?

    Can't yet say whether or not threatening to ruin the economy has worked or not. We'll soon find out whether it worked or whether threatening Turkish membership was the superior tactic.
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    Both are appropriate adjectives, however, there is a point when a constant focus on one person changes the initial actions from paying a tribute to Joe, to lessening her name by using her a posthumous mascot in a political campaign.
    Then hopefully it won't reach that point.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by Aph)
    One, I would appreciate a tag when you cite me...
    Two, I'd hardly say that I think the EU is absolutely 100% perfect...

    WOW!!! That's an emotive argument if I ever heard one. How on earth are democracy and freedom being lost to an EU superstate?! You sound like a Scottish nationalist right now...
    Also it's called USE not EU
    I do not know how you see it but when Britain's highest court can be overruled by an EU court whose judges have not visited Britain, nor have Britain's interests in their mind, that is a loosening of Britain's freedom to government itself. When a law that is disliked by all political parties in Britain, all companies in Britain, and all trade unions in Britain becomes a law because British MEPs were outvoted, that is a loss of Britain's freedom to government Britain.
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by RayApparently)
    What I mean is that wouldn't you want your writing and ideas to be promoted?
    Not when it means my death being used as a political football

    Can't yet say whether or not threatening to ruin the economy has worked or not. We'll soon find out whether it worked or whether threatening Turkish membership was the superior tactic.
    Given that almost twice as many people didn't believe George's threats as those who did, and I imagine the majority of those who did believe it are going to be the more hardline remainers, I think we can say it failed, it's not even hard to shoot down the suggestion.
    • Very Important Poster
    • Welcome Squad
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    Very Important Poster
    Welcome Squad
    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    I do not know how you see it but when Britain's highest court can be overruled by an EU court whose judges have not visited Britain, nor have Britain's interests in their mind, that is a loosening of Britain's freedom to government itself. When a law that is disliked by all political parties in Britain, all companies in Britain, and all trade unions in Britain becomes a law because British MEPs were outvoted, that is a loss of Britain's freedom to government Britain.
    Again, can apply the same logic to Scotland and you don't want them to leave do you?
    Also judges should never have the interests of the country in mind... They should be following the letter and spirit of the law and that's it.
 
 
 
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: August 15, 2016
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Would you like to hibernate through the winter months?
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.