The Manchester United Thread XIX Watch

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jam277
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#5601
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#5601
The Shed End Nickini Hiddink doesn't do anything with the youth for obvious reasons. He said straight away he's going to try and win both cups and get high as possible in the league considering the situation Chelsea were at Christmas. There's no faffing about with youth in this case, even in an idealistic world he would play them and get them to the level of a first teamer.

Judging a man who is in charge for 6 months in the same way that Mourinho is judged according to youth(over a 2.5 year spell) is unfair too.


The board bringing in young players doesn't mean that José can't play youth either. There is a key position that has a player with clear potential to fill yet Loftus Cheek wasn't given a chance. I guess maybe had Chelsea started the season better, Loftus Cheek would be having a few more appearances. So maybe he wasn't at the club long enough to actually fulfil his plans. I also guess that he gave Kenedy some gametime(although unsure whether this was a ploy to get more funding, as the actual games he played in didn't make sense i.e. coming on with 20mins to go when the team is losing).

(Original post by Nickini)
Youth has been a big priority for Abramovich for awhile now, Mourinho made some big claims about our youth in his time here and failed to deliver, although in fairness his time with us was cut short.

I am enjoying United fans trying to convince themselves Mourinho will use youth when every piece of evidence points to the contrary though. If he manages to stay with United long term then possibly, but again there's little to say that will happen, and I'd be surprised if United decide to give him a long contract.

His ego will have been bruised massively from this season and he'll be given £100m at the bare minimum to spend over the summer. He won't want to lose out to us and with Pep at City, nothing less than the title will be good enough for him. He won't be taking chances on youth players unless absolutely necessary, or as you say if there's someone good enough to break into the first team imminently.
Yeah. He failed to deliver with youth. Coming to think of it however, Guardiola's spell with youth obviously is strengthened by the fact he had managed the B team just before he managed Barcelona. He's therefore been at the club and seen the youngsters play for him and therefore can make his assessment on who is first team quality better(although he did a fantastic job regardless). Ferguson was at the club for a long time before his youth experiment worked with Beckham and co. Since then he's been unable to replicate that too, although I guess he had Cleverley.

In reality, Van Gaal and Simeone are the best with young/academy players in a top team. The work Simeone has done with Atlético is outstanding (Koke/Torres/Saul/Costa) while Van Gaal had a large part to play in the careers of players like Xavi/Iniesta/Valdes/Motta/Kroos/Muller/Alaba. Currently he's doing well with the likes of CBJ/Rashford/Lingard.

Maybe Mourinho needs to have some slack cut here but I doubt he's really that great with youth unless they've been bought or are ready made(i.e. Varane/Zouma/Balotelli)

Said earlier. Only player Mourinho deserves credit for other than his porto days(which nearly every manager is able to do in charge of that club) is Santon. That surely speaks volumes.
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Fizzel
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#5602
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#5602
The main reason I wouldn't be so worried about Jose and youth is our academy hasn't produced a top prospect in a fairly long time. We've produced okay, players like Welbeck and Cleverly but we need a Martial come out of the academy. Even with the ones we've had come through of late, (Januzaj, Pereria, Varela, Pogba types) most of them are arriving at 16. If you take Wenger's stated timeline of players at that age they have already passed a couple of the barriers to top level football, and in a sense are "ready made" players. What you are really talking about is whether as a manager he would be preventing players coming through to the first team.

Even with LVG now, how many of these players are good enough. Is anyone looking at McNair and saying he's a Varane or Laporte? Unless we have those player in the academy any coach, is just blocking the progression of players to lower level clubs. United's youth as far as the first team goes, currently consists of buying players in the final stages of their development like DDG, Martial, Shaw, Depay. United's youth problem is with the players the academy is producing not the player the team is using.

Jose would be a short term manager so the only worry over youth is would he allow the team to develop a problematic age profile by not giving enough opportunity to young players, and by young we mean of the right age nothing to do with academy. Would Jose damage a player like Martial or Depay?
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NathanW18
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#5603
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#5603
That is exactly why I don't understand why many fans are continuing on about young players. We have produced zero top quality academy players in years. None of the current one's are certain to be a Man United player (or playing at another elite team) in 5 years time. It would only be a worry if we were churning out MUQ academy players every couple years. That's just not the case.

The one's that are good enough will likely get a chance. The others will leave and likely play for mid-tier Premiership clubs or Championship level.
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NJA
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#5604
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Didn't Sunday's game actually expose LVG?

If Rooney wasn't injured would he have played Rashford?
I mean all those weeks he left Rashford out and played the likes of Fellani instead.

It's his job to pick the best players, it seems to me that injuries forced him to pick who he should have used before. Am I wrong?
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Rk2k14
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#5605
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(Original post by NathanW18)
That is exactly why I don't understand why many fans are continuing on about young players. We have produced zero top quality academy players in years. None of the current one's are certain to be a Man United player (or playing at another elite team) in 5 years time. It would only be a worry if we were churning out MUQ academy players every couple years. That's just not the case.

The one's that are good enough will likely get a chance. The others will leave and likely play for mid-tier Premiership clubs or Championship level.
Your only experience of them is watching a handful of games.
Pretty sure if you've been watching u21's (Dirtybit has), then I'm sure you'll realise there are a few gems in there. No one's expecting them all to come good but to say none of them will become a United player is nonsense.

The quality of our youngsters is much better than previous years and the performances have shown this. Won the u21 cup last year and currently sitting top atm.
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Dirtybit
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(Original post by NathanW18)
That is exactly why I don't understand why many fans are continuing on about young players. We have produced zero top quality academy players in years. None of the current one's are certain to be a Man United player (or playing at another elite team) in 5 years time. It would only be a worry if we were churning out MUQ academy players every couple years. That's just not the case.The one's that are good enough will likely get a chance. The others will leave and likely play for mid-tier Premiership clubs or Championship level.
True no young players are certain to be a United player, because no one can ever be certain, but to say that there isn't any top team level talented players in our youth is 100% wrong.

Well said. Rk2k14

Tier 1: Januzaj, Varela, Pereira, TFM, are all talented enough to make it into the United First team, the rest is now to hard work and luck being on your side. I'd say TFM is one of those where you'd say he's nailed on to make it due to this mature physique. Also have the likes of Gribben, Angel Gomes, Indy Boonen in this but they are still way too young to make any calls.

Tier 2: Rashford and CBJ are hard to tell right now because they haven't looked like 'the best of the crop' type players in their respected academy groups (although Rashford has been killing it with the goals over the past year). Although they have been doing well playing for the first team. I'd probably add in Lingard and Wilson to tier 2 as well.

The rest either don't have what it takes to make it IMO or they haven't played enough U21 games to judge.
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That Bearded Man
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#5607
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(Original post by NJA)
Didn't Sunday's game actually expose LVG?

If Rooney wasn't injured would he have played Rashford?
I mean all those weeks he left Rashford out and played the likes of Fellani instead.

It's his job to pick the best players, it seems to me that injuries forced him to pick who he should have used before. Am I wrong?
This is a really good point, it shows how important it is to have competition for places because you might get dropped. Fellaini, Rooney, Lingard and Mata have been classic examples of this. I think it's a better example of players suiting a system. Mata CAM, Memphis LW and a striker who can work channels and hover around the box. Depends if LVG would have the balls to drop Rooney (unlikely)

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Dirtybit
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#5608
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(Original post by NJA)
Didn't Sunday's game actually expose LVG?

If Rooney wasn't injured would he have played Rashford?
I mean all those weeks he left Rashford out and played the likes of Fellani instead.

It's his job to pick the best players, it seems to me that injuries forced him to pick who he should have used before. Am I wrong?
Yep. Already said this. People are giving LVG way too much credit.

Let's be honest if Fellaini, Rooney, Valencia, Young were all fit then they'd all be playing in the starting XI up till now, Varela would have been sold in January, Rashford would be unheard of to most people, Mata would still be playing RW, Memphis, Lingard and Herrera on the bench too. Oh and we'd probably be like 10th too.
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manutd fc2
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#5609
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#5609
i always enjoy reading your discussions :yy:
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Fizzel
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#5610
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(Original post by Rk2k14)
Your only experience of them is watching a handful of games.
Pretty sure if you've been watching u21's (Dirtybit has), then I'm sure you'll realise there are a few gems in there. No one's expecting them all to come good but to say none of them will become a United player is nonsense.
Not to say I disagree totally but my counter would be I'm not a football coach, so as above I defer to someone who is. Take the Wenger timeline again, when you are talking about Januzaj, Varela, Pereira, TFM you are identifying players based on technical and physical attributes, which according to Wenger is what you look for until the age of 16. That is why the likes of Januzaj were picked up by United because they were standout talents at their age. However the same could be said of Anderson and Nani, which is where his later statements about team integration/footballing brain, and then mental rigidity (? right phrase) come in for progression to the top level. Januzaj is key case, right from the start he was humiliating players much older than him even without having any really notable pace with his dribbiling but does/has that resulted in lots of goals and assists? He also has question marks over his attitude and commitment both here and during his spell at Dortmund and with Belgium. So basically you're identifying them based on attributes which, according to someone who is much better than us at spotting talent, really are markers for youth level players, not first team players. Janzuaj's dribbling may well put him in a position to be a brilliant player, but unless he fufills the later stages of his development, you could just be looking at another Adel Taarabt. Less technically skilled players stand more chance if their progression overall is better, like say a Jesse Lingard perhaps.

Also think its too early for people to say either way about Rashford. People saying he's a great finisher he's played two games ffs. One was against a team with players who's level is questionable, and the other he admitted having no time to dwell on the game before being thrown in helped. I remember there was hype about Wilson in much the same manner. As LVG said the first game is the easy one for youth players, we need more time before we can say he was overlooked unfairly. It may well (most likely will) turn out to be the case he's unprepared for this level of football on regular basis as is the case for most youth players.
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ozzyoscy
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#5611
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in light of Rashford's emergence and talk of all the youngsters who did and didn't do well, let us now remember Nick Chadwick.

If you're wondering why he never made it despite 5+ years at United and plenty of grooming, let this ambitious, motivational fellow tell you in his own words:

"It was a strange situation. When I signed for United, I never dreamt I would play for the first team; I figured I'd be there a couple of years and end up somewhere else a bit lower down. It started to get less fun the higher you went up: when things weren't going great you felt like the whole world was on your shoulders. Being at one of the most famous clubs on the planet was a bit of a drag.

From the moment I went there I don't think I truly believed I would be a regular Manchester United player. In the end, I think I was happy to get away from United. It's a fantastic club and I wouldn't say a bad word against it, but I don't think I was really cut out for it. I wouldn't have enjoyed staying there. You've got to be something special to play at the club for a long period of time."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27399601

Perhaps needless to say, after his move was made permanent he scored 1 goal in 22 and was released. Without a club, he must be retired now. He's not gonna be a coach any time soon, and I don't think he'll get work as a motivational speaker. He might be on the dole as we speak.

So depressing.
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NJA
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(Original post by ozzyoscy)
...
Perhaps needless to say, after his move was made permanent he scored 1 goal in 22 and was released. Without a club, he must be retired now. He's not gonna be a coach any time soon, and I don't think he'll get work as a motivational speaker. He might be on the dole as we speak.

So depressing.
Dood, there is life outside football.
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jam277
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#5613
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(Original post by Fizzel)
The main reason I wouldn't be so worried about Jose and youth is our academy hasn't produced a top prospect in a fairly long time. We've produced okay, players like Welbeck and Cleverly but we need a Martial come out of the academy. Even with the ones we've had come through of late, (Januzaj, Pereria, Varela, Pogba types) most of them are arriving at 16. If you take Wenger's stated timeline of players at that age they have already passed a couple of the barriers to top level football, and in a sense are "ready made" players. What you are really talking about is whether as a manager he would be preventing players coming through to the first team.

Even with LVG now, how many of these players are good enough. Is anyone looking at McNair and saying he's a Varane or Laporte? Unless we have those player in the academy any coach, is just blocking the progression of players to lower level clubs. United's youth as far as the first team goes, currently consists of buying players in the final stages of their development like DDG, Martial, Shaw, Depay. United's youth problem is with the players the academy is producing not the player the team is using.

Jose would be a short term manager so the only worry over youth is would he allow the team to develop a problematic age profile by not giving enough opportunity to young players, and by young we mean of the right age nothing to do with academy. Would Jose damage a player like Martial or Depay?
José wouldn't damage Martial, he could possibly damage Depay if he were to get loads of wingers like he did at Chelsea with De Bruyne/Mata. however other than that if there is no prerequisite for academy players then I guess Mourinho isn't that bad to have. Would say that LVG's record in bringing up youth/younger players is fantastic though and usually has lead to a long term success effect to the club(Puyol/Xavi/Motta/Iniesta) and (Badstuber/Kroos/Alaba/Muller) . Heck would even say he's got a fair amount of responsibility for Spain and Germany's success at international level.

Maybe if he spent a bit more time at United England might be promising at international level

Probably the issue that your youngsters aren't good enough mentally is the issue.
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SirAlexFerguson
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#5614
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I think we should sell some of the ageing squad this summer and build a new team with a new manager around the young players with some top new signings.
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Dirtybit
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#5615
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#5615
(Original post by Fizzel)
Not to say I disagree totally but my counter would be I'm not a football coach, so as above I defer to someone who is. Take the Wenger timeline again, when you are talking about Januzaj, Varela, Pereira, TFM you are identifying players based on technical and physical attributes, which according to Wenger is what you look for until the age of 16. That is why the likes of Januzaj were picked up by United because they were standout talents at their age. However the same could be said of Anderson and Nani, which is where his later statements about team integration/footballing brain, and then mental rigidity (? right phrase) come in for progression to the top level. Januzaj is key case, right from the start he was humiliating players much older than him even without having any really notable pace with his dribbiling but does/has that resulted in lots of goals and assists? He also has question marks over his attitude and commitment both here and during his spell at Dortmund and with Belgium. So basically you're identifying them based on attributes which, according to someone who is much better than us at spotting talent, really are markers for youth level players, not first team players. Janzuaj's dribbling may well put him in a position to be a brilliant player, but unless he fufills the later stages of his development, you could just be looking at another Adel Taarabt. Less technically skilled players stand more chance if their progression overall is better, like say a Jesse Lingard perhaps.
That was a cheap one to question Januzaj's output in his first season at 18 despite him pretty much being our only real attacking spark for that season.
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difeo
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(Original post by ozzyoscy)
in light of Rashford's emergence and talk of all the youngsters who did and didn't do well, let us now remember Nick Chadwick.

If you're wondering why he never made it despite 5+ years at United and plenty of grooming, let this ambitious, motivational fellow tell you in his own words:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27399601

Perhaps needless to say, after his move was made permanent he scored 1 goal in 22 and was released. Without a club, he must be retired now. He's not gonna be a coach any time soon, and I don't think he'll get work as a motivational speaker. He might be on the dole as we speak.

So depressing.
Luke Chadwick
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mojojojo101
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#5617
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#5617
(Original post by Dirtybit)
That was a cheap one to question Januzaj's output in his first season at 18 despite him pretty much being our only real attacking spark for that season.
While I agree its a little cheap, his record from that season is hardly stellar and since then he has been largely an irrelevance.
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Fizzel
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#5618
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(Original post by Dirtybit)
That was a cheap one to question Januzaj's output in his first season at 18 despite him pretty much being our only real attacking spark for that season.
Him being the only spark doesn't take away from the actual metrics of his end product. You also need to ignore his from in the significant period of time since his first season. Is he a better player now than when we first saw him? Not based on what we've seen of him in the first team and certainly not based on tangible measures.
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Dirtybit
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#5619
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#5619
(Original post by Fizzel)
Him being the only spark doesn't take away from the actual metrics of his end product. You also need to ignore his from in the significant period of time since his first season. Is he a better player now than when we first saw him? Not based on what we've seen of him in the first team and certainly not based on tangible measures.
If you are talking about end product, at the same age Ronaldo had 13 goals+assists in 40 appearances in his first season and look at him now.

Managers have so much effect on a player. His growth was actually stunted by LVG. He needs to have a free role drifting along the 3 CAM's behind the ST like under Moyes. Last season under LVG we started off playing 3-5-2 a formation which he really didn't fit in. When we switched to 4-3-3, the little time he played, he was shifted to the wings and ordered to stay wide (and not drift inside) which really isn't the type of player he is.
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jam277
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#5620
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(Original post by Dirtybit)
If you are talking about end product, at the same age Ronaldo had 13 goals+assists in 40 appearances in his first season and look at him now.

Managers have so much effect on a player. His growth was actually stunted by LVG. He needs to have a free role drifting along the 3 CAM's behind the ST like under Moyes. Last season under LVG we started off playing 3-5-2 a formation which he really didn't fit in. When we switched to 4-3-3, the little time he played, he was shifted to the wings and ordered to stay wide (and not drift inside) which really isn't the type of player he is.
Under Moyes you lot played 4-4-2 until January when he started using Mata, when Januzaj was then dropped.
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