The Manchester United Thread XIX Watch

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Fizzel
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#5621
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#5621
(Original post by Dirtybit)
If you are talking about end product, at the same age Ronaldo had 13 goals+assists in 40 appearances in his first season and look at him now.

Managers have so much effect on a player. His growth was actually stunted by LVG. He needs to have a free role drifting along the 3 CAM's behind the ST like under Moyes. Last season under LVG we started off playing 3-5-2 a formation which he really didn't fit in. When we switched to 4-3-3, the little time he played, he was shifted to the wings and ordered to stay wide (and not drift inside) which really isn't the type of player he is.
What has Ronaldo got to do with anything? The both showed spark at young age and that is where the similarities end. Ronaldo didn't have minimal end product for long (certainly not at this stage in his career), his progress season by season in terms of numbers and influence is clear. He's also know for being a workaholic, developing himself and his game season by season. None of those other than having a spark at young age are common in both players. Which goes right back to the original point, that spark in his first season is not evidence of him making it. Even someone like Sterling, much more recently showed far more of the mental side of the game when he was given responsibility and played in unfavourable positions, and still was able to show talent that got a £50m move. I question his output because for all the flair, we aren't seeing numbers or influence in games improve. If his above average flair isn't over a period of time resulting in him pulling ahead of his peers, why would you use that flair as a basis for him being an above average young player?

He's not a special talent for his age. He's got great technical ability, but his link play, his end product, and his ability to influence games is not that of a special talent at age 21. You can blame LVG but that still doesn't explain away why the same is true for Belgium and the same was true for his spell at Dortmund.

The Dortmund spell is possibly the most damning aspect its a complete change of scene, style and management yet he still couldn't break into the team, let alone give any indication he's going to make it as the top player his technical skills suggest he's capable of. Tuchel said it outright "It is a pity he did not show the desire and attitude you need to progress at his age" There was no restriction there as his initial position was that of pretty much replicating Reus. So he clearly had designs on playing Januzaj in just the style was all say he craves to play, and he still didn't deem him worthy of any serious minutes let alone a first team spot.
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Dirtybit
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#5622
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#5622
(Original post by Fizzel)
What has Ronaldo got to do with anything? The both showed spark at young age and that is where the similarities end. Ronaldo didn't have minimal end product for long (certainly not at this stage in his career), his progress season by season in terms of numbers and influence is clear. He's also know for being a workaholic, developing himself and his game season by season. None of those other than having a spark at young age are common in both players. Which goes right back to the original point, that spark in his first season is not evidence of him making it. Even someone like Sterling, much more recently showed far more of the mental side of the game when he was given responsibility and played in unfavourable positions, and still was able to show talent that got a £50m move. I question his output because for all the flair, we aren't seeing numbers or influence in games improve. If his above average flair isn't over a period of time resulting in him pulling ahead of his peers, why would you use that flair as a basis for him being an above average young player?He's not a special talent for his age. He's got great technical ability, but his link play, his end product, and his ability to influence games is not that of a special talent at age 21. You can blame LVG but that still doesn't explain away why the same is true for Belgium and the same was true for his spell at Dortmund.The Dortmund spell is possibly the most damning aspect its a complete change of scene, style and management yet he still couldn't break into the team, let alone give any indication he's going to make it as the top player his technical skills suggest he's capable of. Tuchel said it outright "It is a pity he did not show the desire and attitude you need to progress at his age" There was no restriction there as his initial position was that of pretty much replicating Reus. So he clearly had designs on playing Januzaj in just the style was all say he craves to play, and he still didn't deem him worthy of any serious minutes let alone a first team spot.
The Ronaldo example shows you proof that goals/assist output during your first season in the PL at 18 does not necessarily show you if the player will make it or not, so I would not use the goals/assist output as an example to show that Januzaj probably won't make it.

There are different types of players with different roles in different systems too. Look at Hazard, he is not a stat king but he adds so much more to the game when he plays. We're talking about key passes/creating space on counters/beating players/pre-assists etc.This is where I believe Januzaj fits into.

Sterling played under the same manager the whole way through his emergence so you can't compare it to Januzaj's. At any rate, are you going to use Sterling getting a £50m move to justify his talent with the well known inflation of price for british players? Also are we going to act like PSG didn't send a mega bid for Januzaj too after his first season? Does that also justify his talent too?

It's not even a question about if Januzaj is hungry enough to succeed as we've seen in various interviews his desire to be a United legend and how he has tried to bulk up e.g. him even taking the #11 shows his desire to succeed. So going back to my point about different managers/environments/systems having different effects on players, Having luck on your side is unfortunately/fortunately a major aspect in actually making it as a player. You have to be at the right place at the right time. If Pogba had stayed at United he wouldn't be the player he is today, fortunately he was able to get a move to Juventus under Conte, a manager who could get the best out of him unlike SAF. What am I saying? If Januzaj was under the right environment he would be succeeding right now.
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jam277
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#5623
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#5623
You are comparing Hazard to Januzaj. :rofl:

Na there is a complete difference when you look at the way the players play.
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Rk2k14
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#5624
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#5624
Nah, can't say that of Januzaj. Even Tuchel, who had no reason to say anything negative about him also questioned his attitude (as Fizzel stated). Van Gaal may have also done the same thing, given that he was sent on loan.

Its also one thing saying you want to be a legend and then going out and do that. Numerous players speak about how motivated Ronaldo was. E.g. being the first and last to training. Yeah he may have taken the number 11 shirt but that could be a reason for him not 'making it so far'. Ronaldo got the shirt and proved his worth it in. Yes Januzaj did not get the same opportunities but at United you have to make every moment count and he hasn't done that. Every minute is important for a young player nowadays.

Also, just because a big team was willing to make a significant bid on a player doesn't really hold. They saw something and just did what PSG do. They aren't losing any sleep over that "mega bid" now.

What environment do you mean? He is under the management of a guy known for giving youth a chance. There's obviously a reason why he hasn't given Januzaj the same number of opportunities as other players. Perhaps Van Gaal doesn't believe he's good enough yet/lacks attitude etc.

Ronaldo was something special when he first joined. End of your seat special. Januzaj was not that. Don't mention the two in the same sentence.

Ill Will RIP, yo i'm out.
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Dirtybit
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#5625
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#5625
(Original post by jam277)
You are comparing Hazard to Januzaj. :rofl:

Na there is a complete difference when you look at the way the players play.
Really don't see what's funny here, but then again probably the fact that Rashford is superior to Hazard in terms of output this season.
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jam277
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#5626
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#5626
(Original post by Dirtybit)
Really don't see what's funny here, but then again probably the fact that Rashford is superior to Hazard in terms of output this season.
You say you watch football but you clearly don't know anything about it if you're comparing the two players.
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ikhan94
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#5627
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#5627
LOL trolled
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Dirtybit
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#5628
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#5628
(Original post by jam277)
You say you watch football but you clearly don't know anything about it if you're comparing the two players.
Because I said that Hazard provides a lot towards the team regardless of him scoring 1 goal all season? All I was saying is that Januzaj is similar in that sense. I am not saying they are on the same level or saying that they play the same.
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jam277
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#5629
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#5629
(Original post by Dirtybit)
Because I said that Hazard provides a lot towards the team regardless of him scoring 1 goal all season? All I was saying is that Januzaj is similar in that sense. I am not saying they are on the same level or saying that they play the same.
And Cleverley watches spanish football so his sideways passes means more because Barcelona play sideways passes.
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Dirtybit
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#5630
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#5630
(Original post by Rk2k14)
Nah, can't say that of Januzaj. Even Tuchel, who had no reason to say anything negative about him also questioned his attitude (as Fizzel stated). Van Gaal may have also done the same thing, given that he was sent on loan.

Its also one thing saying you want to be a legend and then going out and do that. Numerous players speak about how motivated Ronaldo was. E.g. being the first and last to training. Yeah he may have taken the number 11 shirt but that could be a reason for him not 'making it so far'. Ronaldo got the shirt and proved his worth it in. Yes Januzaj did not get the same opportunities but at United you have to make every moment count and he hasn't done that. Every minute is important for a young player nowadays.

Also, just because a big team was willing to make a significant bid on a player doesn't really hold. They saw something and just did what PSG do. They aren't losing any sleep over that "mega bid" now.

What environment do you mean? He is under the management of a guy known for giving youth a chance. There's obviously a reason why he hasn't given Januzaj the same number of opportunities as other players. Perhaps Van Gaal doesn't believe he's good enough yet/lacks attitude etc.

Ronaldo was something special when he first joined. End of your seat special. Januzaj was not that. Don't mention the two in the same sentence.

Ill Will RIP, yo i'm out.
This is void because I'm not saying Januzaj is like Ronaldo or even comparing them saying they are similar, I could have used many other really good player's first season statistics to show what I'm saying, just that's what came to my head.
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Rk2k14
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#5631
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#5631
(Original post by Dirtybit)
This is void because I'm not saying Januzaj is like Ronaldo or even comparing them saying they are similar, I could have used many other really good player's first season statistics to show what I'm saying, just that's what came to my head.
I used Ronaldo because he's the perfect example of a young player who was motivated.
Its something Januzaj lacks.
Not really void then.
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Dirtybit
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#5632
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#5632
(Original post by jam277)
And Cleverley watches spanish football so his sideways passes means more because Barcelona play sideways passes.
Lol, are so you are seriously saying you cannot find anything in common with what Hazard and Januzaj bring? Again take out the idea of them being of similar level.
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Rk2k14
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#5633
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#5633
Both play in the premier league?
Both play for Belgium?
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Dirtybit
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#5634
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#5634
(Original post by Rk2k14)
I used Ronaldo because he's the perfect example of a young player who was motivated.
Its something Januzaj lacks.
Not really void then.
Yeah Ronaldo definitely is I am in no way discrediting him, let's leave him out of this.
But to say Januzaj lacks it because he hasn't suceeded isn't necessarily correct. Just because you are motivated and determined does not mean you will make it. That's why I was talking about different environments and not being unlucky e.t.c.
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Dirtybit
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#5635
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#5635
(Original post by Rk2k14)
Both play in the premier league?
Both play for Belgium?
Both are natural dribblers?
Both like to beat their man?
Both like to stretch their opponents?

Anyways this has dragged more than it needs to.
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Rk2k14
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#5636
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#5636
(Original post by Dirtybit)
Both are natural dribblers?
Both like to beat their man?
Both like to stretch their opponents?

Anyways this has dragged more than it needs to.
You can say that about 80% of young players today.

Sisto is a natural dribbler and can do both them things. Does that mean he's also similar to Hazard and Januzaj?
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Dirtybit
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#5637
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#5637
(Original post by Rk2k14)
You can say that about 80% of young players today.

Sisto is a natural dribbler and can do both them things. Does that mean he's also similar to Hazard and Januzaj?
In that aspect yes.

Similar meaning:
having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical.
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Rk2k14
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#5638
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#5638
(Original post by Dirtybit)
In that aspect yes.

Similar meaning:
having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical.
But that logic is pretty flawed when comparing players.
Stones thinks he's Rolls Royce Wraith.

Man aint similar to Franz
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Dirtybit
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#5639
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#5639
(Original post by Rk2k14)
But that logic is pretty flawed when comparing players.
Stones thinks he's Rolls Royce Wraith.

Man aint similar to Franz
Yeah I'm not trying to compare the players though if you read what I was actually saying not what Jam saw out of it
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Fizzel
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#5640
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#5640
(Original post by Dirtybit)
The Ronaldo example shows you proof that goals/assist output during your first season in the PL at 18 does not necessarily show you if the player will make it or not, so I would not use the goals/assist output as an example to show that Januzaj probably won't make it.
Point being, its not his first season, its his 3rd season. I wasn't taking aim for his lack of end product the point was his lack of progression from that point, and hence how you cannot use one promising season as evidence of him being a prospect years later. You need to bring about an argument without using his first season as the central point.

There are different types of players with different roles in different systems too. Look at Hazard, he is not a stat king but he adds so much more to the game when he plays. We're talking about key passes/creating space on counters/beating players/pre-assists etc.This is where I believe Januzaj fits into.
Not simply number, as I said above with Ronaldo you could see his influence in the team grow. Hazard is the go to guy for Chelsea even without being a stat monster. Januzaj's influence in games is still unchanged, (if anything lessened) from where he was 2 seasons ago.

Sterling played under the same manager the whole way through his emergence so you can't compare it to Januzaj's. At any rate, are you going to use Sterling getting a £50m move to justify his talent with the well known inflation of price for british players? Also are we going to act like PSG didn't send a mega bid for Januzaj too after his first season? Does that also justify his talent too?
Again with the first season. Sterling was played as a striker, as a wing back, all over the place and was still the one to watch at Liverpool. You cannot use, Januzaj being forced to play too wide as an excuse for why his star has faded. I also have no idea about PSG's mega bid, I've seen that they were interested (initially on getting him on free), nothing solid on a mega bid.

It's not even a question about if Januzaj is hungry enough to succeed as we've seen in various interviews his desire to be a United legend and how he has tried to bulk up e.g. him even taking the #11 shows his desire to succeed. So going back to my point about different managers/environments/systems having different effects on players, Having luck on your side is unfortunately/fortunately a major aspect in actually making it as a player. You have to be at the right place at the right time. If Pogba had stayed at United he wouldn't be the player he is today, fortunately he was able to get a move to Juventus under Conte, a manager who could get the best out of him unlike SAF. What am I saying? If Januzaj was under the right environment he would be succeeding right now.
He can talk all he wants, there have been multiple questions raised by the people he's worked with over his attitude. He's doesn't look like he's bulked up in the gym, hardly a Memphis like physique going on, and time has passed. Pogba didn't go to Juv and fail to make the team, like Januzaj did at Dortmund, like he has with Belgium. Which would be the right environment for him btw (hence the Sterling example, still attracting attention at wingback). How close to perfect is everything needing to be for us to see the best of him?
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