Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
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cowsforsale
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Watch Douglas Alexander squirm his way out of guaranteeing more powers to Scotland in the event of a No vote..

Vote YES!
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L i b
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(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
They will continue, it is just likely an independent Scotland would not be part of it. "Do No Harm" has been talked about in regards to foreign policy. I'm pretty sure going into foreign countries and dropping bombs is harmful. Thus an independent Scotland, as it would be in 2016, would not be in these wars.
There is nothing more harmful than doing nothing when regimes murder and slaughter their own people, threaten war against other countries and violate their international obligations.

That something "has been talked about" is meaningless.

And so, Scottish soldiers would not continue to be a part of it. Thats simply the likely scenario with an independent Scotland as it stands.

With the EU, You attempt to add reason to the absence of such a provision without any back-up of facts. Where or whom has said that the reason such a policy doesn't exists is because Scotland would 'obviously' not be part of the EU? Which I of course disagree with. Come on, tell me where your facts come in that regard?
I have no idea what you're on about here. But Scotland ceases to be a member of such international organisations due to the basic provisions of international law, not as a result of EU law. International law governs how the treaties operate and who is party to them. That much should be obvious.

Where do my facts come from? Well, you can try reading the independent legal advice provided to the UK Government as part of the Scotland Analysis programme, or read some of the cases and opinions it references. A particularly good one is the Supreme Court of Canada's Reference in re: the secession of Quebec.

I'm under no illusions that you will, however. For you, this is not a legal debate. This is a debate whereby you think I'm somehow trying to suggest there are limitations on the power of an entity - the Nation - which you have imbued with quasi-Divine authority. Mine is a case of law and political practice - yours is a case of arguing anything, no matter how implausible, that fits with your bizarre sense of nationalistic pride.

The fact of the matter is that this has simply never been thought of, its such a unique situation that Scotland will likely be the first 'test case'.
Nonsense. There have been countless examples of where new states have emerged from existing states, and normal international practice is that they cease to be a member of international organisations automatically. This happened when Ireland became independent as the Free State in 1922 - although that is simply one example from many over decades.

It is an accepted and quite normal part of international law. That you don't understand international law isn't really my problem. I suppose I should start having arguments with people who have at least a kernel of knowledge about what they are seeking to pontificate on.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by cowsforsale)
http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views...attle-1.187491



Maturestudent36? Midlander? Good Bloke? Scots issues left for those living in Scotland I see...
So we'll be seeing you berate Sean Connery, Alan Cummings, Irvin Welsh and this motley crew whenever they rear their heads.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti..._campaign=1490
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Old_Simon
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(Original post by L i b)
There is nothing more harmful than doing nothing when regimes murder and slaughter their own people, threaten war against other countries and violate their international obligations.

That something "has been talked about" is meaningless.

And so, Scottish soldiers would not continue to be a part of it. Thats simply the likely scenario with an independent Scotland as it stands.



I have no idea what you're on about here. But Scotland ceases to be a member of such international organisations due to the basic provisions of international law, not as a result of EU law. International law governs how the treaties operate and who is party to them. That much should be obvious.

Where do my facts come from? Well, you can try reading the independent legal advice provided to the UK Government as part of the Scotland Analysis programme, or read some of the cases and opinions it references. A particularly good one is the Supreme Court of Canada's Reference in re: the secession of Quebec.

I'm under no illusions that you will, however. For you, this is not a legal debate. This is a debate whereby you think I'm somehow trying to suggest there are limitations on the power of an entity - the Nation - which you have imbued with quasi-Divine authority. Mine is a case of law and political practice - yours is a case of arguing anything, no matter how implausible, that fits with your bizarre sense of nationalistic pride.



Nonsense. There have been countless examples of where new states have emerged from existing states, and normal international practice is that they cease to be a member of international organisations automatically. This happened when Ireland became independent as the Free State in 1922 - although that is simply one example from many over decades.

It is an accepted and quite normal part of international law. That you don't understand international law isn't really my problem. I suppose I should start having arguments with people who have at least a kernel of knowledge about what they are seeking to pontificate on.
Well said. You are casting pearls before swine.
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Midlander
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(Original post by cowsforsale)
http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views...attle-1.187491



Maturestudent36? Midlander? Good Bloke? Scots issues left for those living in Scotland I see...
England and Wales are part of the union and want Scots to stay, as odd as that may seem.


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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Psyk)
I think he's completely correct. Scotland isn't a country in any sense that is relevant to international law. Isn't that what this whole independence thing is about?
I always thought it was about a group of under achievers who'd convinced themselves that North Sea oil would make them rich for doing nothing.
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L i b
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(Original post by cowsforsale)
Watch Douglas Alexander squirm his way out of guaranteeing more powers to Scotland in the event of a No vote..

Vote YES!
This, of course, being Danny Alexander who supports considerable more powers for the Scottish Parliament and whose party have affirmed precisely what those powers should be? This being Danny Alexander who is presiding over a government which is giving the greatest devolution of fiscal powers in history to the Scottish Parliament in the event of a no vote?

In any case, I sincerely doubt that anyone cares. People would reject Scottish nationalism even if the three main pro-union parties weren't pledged to reviewing the powers of Holyrood. Hell, only a small minority could actually tell you with any degree of accuracy what those powers are.

You're on to a loser there, I'm afraid. Add it to the list of things like Trident, papers by Gavin McCrone and the "Bedroom Tax" that normal people don't give half as much of a toss about as you do.
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Midlander
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(Original post by cowsforsale)


Watch Douglas Alexander squirm his way out of guaranteeing more powers to Scotland in the event of a No vote..

Vote YES!
Scotland has more powers for itself than England.


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Midlander
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(Original post by L i b)
This, of course, being Danny Alexander who supports considerable more powers for the Scottish Parliament and whose party have affirmed precisely what those powers should be? This being Danny Alexander who is presiding over a government which is giving the greatest devolution of fiscal powers in history to the Scottish Parliament in the event of a no vote?

In any case, I sincerely doubt that anyone cares. People would reject Scottish nationalism even if the three main pro-union parties weren't pledged to reviewing the powers of Holyrood. Hell, only a small minority could actually tell you with any degree of accuracy what those powers are.

You're on to a loser there, I'm afraid. Add it to the list of things like Trident, papers by Gavin McCrone and the "Bedroom Tax" that normal people don't give half as much of a toss about as you do.
Douglas Alexander, the Labour MP...


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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Midlander)
England and Wales are part of the union and want Scots to stay, as odd as that may seem.


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Northern Ireland?
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Midlander
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Northern Ireland?
The phone lines mentioned in the article were specifically based in England and Wales. Support for the union is, as I mentioned a number of pages back, high in Northern Ireland, which is the only constituent to receive more in public spending than Scotland, and rather than threaten to leave, it is that commitment from the UK government which keeps support for the union even among the Catholic community there.
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L i b
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(Original post by Midlander)
Douglas Alexander, the Labour MP...
Ah, feck.

Well, that'll be Labour, who sat on the Calman Commission extending the powers of the Scottish Parliament, who brought about devolution in the first place, blah blah blah. In either way, it's a bloody daft thing to attack with.
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Midlander
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(Original post by L i b)
Ah, feck.

Well, that'll be Labour, who sat on the Calman Commission extending the powers of the Scottish Parliament, who brought about devolution in the first place, blah blah blah. In either way, it's a bloody daft thing to attack with.
I find it odd that the government Scotland voted for for 13 years is, in the SNP's eyes, no better than the present coalition. When a government which most Scots voted for wrecks the economy and causes the present hardships which the present government is attempting to fix (the classic Labour-Tory cycle), but because that consists of the Tories, they're evil too.

A worrying number of Scots are basing an extremely important decision based on who is in power now. 55% of Scots did not vote SNP at the last Holyrood elections but are lumbered with them anyway-that is just how democracy works sometimes and is not worth abandoning the union for.
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Good bloke
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(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
Thats just wrong. Go find a source to your claims before talking nonsense.
Which part do you think is wrong?

Actually the UK is a sovereign state
True. I wouldn't think even you would disagree with that obvious fact.

made up several dozen local authorities
True. Surely you won't argue with that?

some of which operate three different legal environment
True. Three separate legal systems in NI, Scotland and England & Wales. Still with me?

England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are no more countries, as far as the rest of the world is concerned than Yorkshire is
True. Name any country which recognises Scotland or England as sovereign states.

And the Isle of Man has a claim to statehood at least as valid as any of the individual home nations, including Scotland
Again, true. The Isle of Man, as an independent crown dependency, has more autonomy than any of the others. Its parliament (the oldest continually existing ruling body in the world) has authority for all domestic matters. Scotland's doesn't (and neither do the elected bodies of Wales and Northern Ireland), and England doesn't even have such an elected body. The Island is in neither the Commonwealth nor the EU.

Perhaps you could let me know where I went wrong and why I deserve such opprobrium from you for pointing out plain facts.
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Good bloke
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(Original post by cowsforsale)
http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views...attle-1.187491

Maturestudent36? Midlander? Good Bloke? Scots issues left for those living in Scotland I see...
It is nothing to do with me, though I don't really see what you are complaining about. If the No campaign wishes to spend money getting non-Scots to tell Scots how much they want Scotland to stay that seems an entirely legitimate message. Whether it is useful is another matter.

Perhaps the Yes campaign will bring Norwegians over to tell Scots what life with higher taxes and spending can be like. They can ask them about the cost of beer and other alcoholic drinks over there, how they like 25% VAT (15% on food). And they can ask them why they pay so much tax when they have an oil wealth fund, that economic panacea.
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1tartanarmy
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Well Wikipedia states that the UK is the sovereign state.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states

The UN seems to think that the UK is the sovereign state.

http://www.un.org/en/members/


The EU seems to think that the UK is the sovereign state.

http://publications.europa.eu/code/e...500.htm#fn-tw1

The world bank seems to think the UK is the sovereign state.

http://data.worldbank.org/about/coun...lending-groups


Care to show me your source for where the UK is t the sovereign state?
I have said on multiple occassions that the UK is a sovereign state. You have wasted your time.

What I was sayinh was that England and Scotland are countries.

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1tartanarmy
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I always thought it was about a group of under achievers who'd convinced themselves that North Sea oil would make them rich for doing nothing.
For our population size we have given the world a hell of a lot.

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1tartanarmy
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(Original post by Psyk)
I think he's completely correct. Scotland isn't a country in any sense that is relevant to international law. Isn't that what this whole independence thing is about?
Since when are countries defined by what other people think and others laws?

If scots say we are a country, then we are.

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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
For our population size we have given the world a hell of a lot.

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Agreed, but most of that was delivered in the union. And lets not forget the contribution of the English, welsh and Irish be it the republic or northern.

I'm very proud of the inventions of Fleming and Byrd and the work they did south of the border on penecillin and televison. im sure that they were equally proud of their scottish and british roots (I'm not aware either of them were fervent nationalists)

.I'm equally proud of whittles and his jet engine, and Berners Lee and his Internet involvement.

Please try not to align the work of great mean and women to your narrow minded outlook on life unless you can demonstrate their narrow minded outlook on life.
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Psyk
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(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
Since when are countries defined by what other people think and others laws?

If scots say we are a country, then we are.

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I agree that Scotland is a country because Scottish people (as well as other British people) say it is one. I'm just saying it's a fairly arbitrary label that is little more than an expression of how people feel. It doesn't have any bearing on whether Scotland should be independent, other than being a roundabout way of saying that some people in Scotland want it to be independent.
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