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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    What's the rest of the world and bigger problems got to do with the matter at hand? This is a thread about Israel/Palestine, not Israel/Palestine vs other issues in the world.
    We can spend all day agreeing that Hamas started this and are to blame but where does that get us?
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    (Original post by The Right)
    We can spend all day agreeing that Hamas started this and are to blame but where does that get us?
    The Arab-Israeli conflict has been ongoing for about 45 years and sectarian conflict between Jews and Arabs for longer, Hamas have been around for less than 30 years.........
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    (Original post by The Right)
    We can spend all day agreeing that Hamas started this and are to blame but where does that get us?
    Well, as Dave said you're talking a load of crap there given it's a conflict that has been ongoing for 66 years with Hamas being a relatively new player. And if you don't want to debate it then don't debate it, and if you actually read it you would find that there is not agreement that it is all Hamas' fault so you're wrong there too. Where does an appeal to relative privation get us other than off topic?
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    The Arab-Israeli conflict has been ongoing for about 45 years and sectarian conflict between Jews and Arabs for longer, Hamas have been around for less than 30 years.........
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Well, as Dave said you're talking a load of crap there given it's a conflict that has been ongoing for 66 years with Hamas being a relatively new player. And if you don't want to debate it then don't debate it, and if you actually read it you would find that there is not agreement that it is all Hamas' fault so you're wrong there too. Where does an appeal to relative privation get us other than off topic?
    I was talking about the most recent conflict, sorry I did not know the topic of discussion was the history of the conflict, I thought the primary time period we were focusing on was this year. My bad I should of known you guys were talking about events decades ago
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    (Original post by The Right)
    I was talking about the most recent conflict, sorry I did not know the topic of discussion was the history of the conflict, I thought the primary time period we were focusing on was this year. My bad I should of known you guys were talking about events decades ago
    Except the title gives no indication that it applies to any specific war/conflict, the poll might since it was absorbed in from another thread about that specific war and really should be removed, but the thread title does indicate that it's the entire conflict as a whole, especially being a Mk IV.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Except the title gives no indication that it applies to any specific war/conflict, the poll might since it was absorbed in from another thread about that specific war and really should be removed, but the thread title does indicate that it's the entire conflict as a whole, especially being a Mk IV.
    Yeh I remember that other thread. I contributed to it for a long time so I automatically assumed it was the same thread. If I remember it had 300+ pages so I should of seen this one was different. My bad
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    (Original post by The Right)
    I was talking about the most recent conflict, sorry I did not know the topic of discussion was the history of the conflict, I thought the primary time period we were focusing on was this year. My bad I should of known you guys were talking about events decades ago
    But this isn't a new conflict, it's a continuation of the long running Arab-Israeli/Zionist conflict that has been ongoing for about 100 years now. You can't single out this one incident and point to one sole cause without getting a wildly inaccurate and distorted picture of the actual causes.
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    Israel Killed 7 Journalists During The Gaza Massacre, Where's The Outrage?

    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/ne...alists-in-gaza

    'During its war on the Gaza Strip in August alone, the Israeli occupation killed another seven journalists, including Italian photographer Simone Camilli, and wounded 15 others, including 12 during the suppression of peaceful rallies in the occupied West Bank' - File Photo of massacre in the Shujaya market which was targeted by an Israeli air strike
    Everyone knows the names of James Foley and Steven Sotloff, but how many people know the names of the journalists which were killed by Israel?
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    But this isn't a new conflict, it's a continuation of the long running Arab-Israeli/Zionist conflict that has been ongoing for about 100 years now. You can't single out this one incident and point to one sole cause without getting a wildly inaccurate and distorted picture of the actual causes.
    Yeh but like the other guy pointed out- Hamas is fairly recent. The political movement or organisation depending how you think about it was created decades ago but they were only elected in the 2005 presidential elections. Then due to the fact they are a designated terrorist organisation their motives were eventually revealed. They promised the people of Palestine a 2010 presidential election but defaulted on that promise and never delivered it. This is the same for local elections in 2011 and 2012. They are officially a dictatorship and democracy does not exist. They have released propaganda about killing all non Muslims in Israel and as we know have participated in repeated rocket fire and tunnel construction illegally going into the lands of Israel. They have openly said in their propaganda they want to destroy Israel so in that case it is clear what must be done.
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    (Original post by The Right)
    Yeh but like the other guy pointed out- Hamas is fairly recent. The political movement or organisation depending how you think about it was created decades ago but they were only elected in the 2005 presidential elections. Then due to the fact they are a designated terrorist organisation their motives were eventually revealed. They promised the people of Palestine a 2010 presidential election but defaulted on that promise and never delivered it. This is the same for local elections in 2011 and 2012. They are officially a dictatorship and democracy does not exist. They have released propaganda about killing all non Muslims in Israel and as we know have participated in repeated rocket fire and tunnel construction illegally going into the lands of Israel. They have openly said in their propaganda they want to destroy Israel so in that case it is clear what must be done.
    Every offensive against Gaza only increases the support for Hamas, if you want to stop Palestinians becoming radicalised then the only possible course of action is to address their grievances, not drop bombs on them. Until Israel realises this, there will never be peace.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    Every offensive against Gaza only increases the support for Hamas, if you want to stop Palestinians becoming radicalised then the only possible course of action is to address their grievances, not drop bombs on them. Until Israel realises this, there will never be peace.
    There was never ever going to be peace. What first maybe had been political and demographic issues have developed into cultural and religious clashes. For example I have Muslim friends who hate Jews so much, have been racist and discriminative since the first day I have met them. The hatred on both sides is ingrained in their minds and bloodline so lasting peace is pointless effort. But let's say peace was achieved. The occurrence of ISIS in the region had destabilised the Middle East so much that if it reached the borders of Israel which many predict will happen, the whole region will be engulfed in war once more.
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    (Original post by The Right)
    There was never ever going to be peace. What first maybe had been political and demographic issues have developed into cultural and religious clashes. For example I have Muslim friends who hate Jews so much, have been racist and discriminative since the first day I have met them. The hatred on both sides is ingrained in their minds and bloodline so lasting peace is pointless effort. But let's say peace was achieved. The occurrence of ISIS in the region had destabilised the Middle East so much that if it reached the borders of Israel which many predict will happen, the whole region will be engulfed in war once more.
    Your Muslim friends aren't living under occupation, oppression, blockade and the constant threat of death, of course a lifetime of someone ****ing on you breeds hatred, but if you offer these people a future for them and their children they will take it in a heartbeat.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    Your Muslim friends aren't living under occupation, oppression, blockade and the constant threat of death, of course a lifetime of someone ****ing on you breeds hatred, but if you offer these people a future for them and their children they will take it in a heartbeat.
    But the west has accepted 10s of millions of Muslims from war torn countries, dictatorships and economically poor nations yet still Muslims hate the west, hate western ideals and a good handful want to destroy it. I know loads of Muslims always moaning about the EU, North America, South America, same old stuff you know.

    My point is if allowing them to settle in our society(which is near impossible the other way around) is not working what good will Israel pandering to Hamas do. If they fight Hamas they will be hated, if they do not fight Hamas they will still be hated. Seriously what good has tolerance and handing benefits, houses, education, healthcare, democracy done for us accept make terrorism at one of its most dangerous levels. You can not reason with them.
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    (Original post by The Right)
    But the west has accepted 10s of millions of Muslims from war torn countries, dictatorships and economically poor nations yet still Muslims hate the west, hate western ideals and a good handful want to destroy it. I know loads of Muslims always moaning about the EU, North America, South America, same old stuff you know.

    My point is if allowing them to settle in our society(which is near impossible the other way around) is not working what good will Israel pandering to Hamas do. If they fight Hamas they will be hated, if they do not fight Hamas they will still be hated. Seriously what good has tolerance and handing benefits, houses, education, healthcare, democracy done for us accept make terrorism at one of its most dangerous levels. You can not reason with them.
    Muslim integration in the UK is an entirely separate issue that has little to do with Israel and Palestine. The point of a solution to the conflict is not to pander to Hamas, but to offer peace and freedom to millions of people who currently have neither.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    Muslim integration in the UK is an entirely separate issue that has little to do with Israel and Palestine. The point of a solution to the conflict is not to pander to Hamas, but to offer peace and freedom to millions of people who currently have neither.
    Which, in the short term, would easiest come by pandering to Hamas and forcing Israel to withdraw from the West Bank.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Which, in the short term, would easiest come by pandering to Hamas and forcing Israel to withdraw from the West Bank.
    I don't really see that as pandering to Hamas tbh, more just the most logical and moral cause of action.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    Muslim integration in the UK is an entirely separate issue that has little to do with Israel and Palestine. The point of a solution to the conflict is not to pander to Hamas, but to offer peace and freedom to millions of people who currently have neither.
    Well discussions into long term peace can only proceed when a new power is instated in Palestine. Because Hamas will not hold presidential elections and have eradicated all democracy then either the people of Palestine topple the government or Israel. Hamas is a designated terrorist organisation by most international bodies and nations. Long term peace is pointless as they have made their motive clear.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    I don't really see that as pandering to Hamas tbh, more just the most logical and moral cause of action.
    Well, the short term fix for the Gaza part would be giving Hamas exactly what they want, even if it is for the people, so in that respect it kinda is pandering to them.
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    (Original post by The Right)
    Well discussions into long term peace can only proceed when a new power is instated in Palestine. Because Hamas will not hold presidential elections and have eradicated all democracy then either the people of Palestine topple the government or Israel. Hamas is a designated terrorist organisation by most international bodies and nations. Long term peace is pointless as they have made their motive clear.
    And while Israel continues to annex land, blockade Gaza and bomb Palestinians the support for Hamas will only grow, Hamas only has power because Israel provides an environment that breeds extremism.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    And while Israel continues to annex land, blockade Gaza and bomb Palestinians the support for Hamas will only grow, Hamas only has power because Israel provides an environment that breeds extremism.
    I'm sure that's the narrative you tell yourself. Deep down, you hope that fighting terror causes more terror, whereas Hamas is actually less popular than ever before.

    Prior to the most recent Gaza conflict, Hamas' popularity was down to about 1/3rd of the Gaza population, and even less in West Bank. They had higher levels of support while Protective Edge was in play, but after the end of the conflict it seems they are even less popular than before it started. They see they have been subjected to a devastating war, and Hamas obtained no real concessions. They did it for nothing. The likely outcome of this conflict is that Hamas will be out of power within the year and the PA wil return to control of Gaza. In which case, Israel has played its cards well.

    But Israel has always played its cards well. Israel plays the ancient Mid East politics game better than the Arabs ever have.
 
 
 
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