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    (Original post by qua)
    Well, in "tiki taka" in its original sense possession is only a side aspect. Key aspects are quick passing/one-twos, intense pressing & off-the-ball movement, triangles. The transition to more and more possession started sometime in 2010/11, when it was needed as a substitute for real defending. You can see that for example in the way Barcelona's possession average steadily increased from 2008/9, 09/10, 10/11 and so on. Nowadays possession is used as one of the main means to achieve a result while the other factors tend to be neglected, which is why neither Bayern nor Barça play real tiki taka atm, they play slower and try to "suffocate" the opponent more. Which is why it is senseless to discuss whether tiki taka has been found out or not, neither Barcelona nor Bayern had been playing it for a while when they were found out. Whether it would still be effective is speculation, I think with the right players and setup it would.

    Spain played handbook tiki taka between 2008 and the 2010 World Cup. (They did use it and not defensive possession in the world cup, they only had less firepower than Barcelona. Iniesta/Villa/Pedro vs Eto'o/Henry/Messi will obviously bring you different results, which explains the 1-0 win pattern). Since then, they have still sometimes used it, mostly in the qualifying campaigns and some friendlies now and then, but NOT in the big tournaments. I think that is because of the reliance on Xabi and Xavi in big games, who tend to slow the game down more and more, whereas in smaller games VdB experiments with younger players. Look at the Bolivia game that had Thiago in the lineup for example, that was excellent tiki taka. With Xavi and Xabi probably being the pillars of the Spain team for this World Cup again, I doubt we'll see a lot of old-skool, quick tiki taka but more "defensive possession" as you say (I don't really like that term). That depends on how much VdB will rotate with younger players like Koke etc as well though, move away from Xavi/Xabi and you will see the play accelerated again.

    Regardless of that, I don't think Barça's decline can be projected on Spain like that. Even the Confed Cup final wasn't down to "Barcelona tactics" but a wrong lineup that saw them overrun in midfield, and fatigue. Regardless of that, I don't think they'll win the thing or even reach the final, but for their squad alone they should be considered on the of the favourites.
    My post was not detailed and pretty blunt.But,I did project Barca's decline on Spain,yes. :smug:

    New Discussion topic:
    Have you seen Brazil play?They're playing with tikitaka to some extent,but they have(or make) a lot more space somehow.I think its because they have such a strong CDM line(Paulinho and Gustavo) combined with a world class back line.Players like hulk,neymar,oscar,fred playing as they please without having to worry about giving the ball away.Also,Paulinho and Gustavo absolutely own the CDM roles always falling back during counter attacks and occasionally going on the offensive taking the opposition by surprise.

    Spain dont have that.Busquets and Xabi are both too attack minded and slow to fall back.
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    (Original post by economist2)
    My post was not detailed and pretty blunt.But,I did project Barca's decline on Spain,yes. :smug:

    New Discussion topic:
    Have you seen Brazil play?They're playing with tikitaka to some extent,but they have(or make) a lot more space somehow.I think its because they have such a strong CDM line(Paulinho and Gustavo) combined with a world class back line.Players like hulk,neymar,oscar,fred playing as they please without having to worry about giving the ball away.Also,Paulinho and Gustavo absolutely own the CDM roles always falling back during counter attacks and occasionally going on the offensive taking the opposition by surprise.

    Spain dont have that.Busquets and Xabi are both too attack minded and slow to fall back.
    Brazil don't play anything close to tiki taka :lolwut:


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    (Original post by The Rusty Spork)
    Brazil don't play anything close to tiki taka :lolwut:


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    What is your definition of tikitaka?The current possesion game that barca/spain play?
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    Argentina struggled today against Iran, who I thought were unlucky to lose. Argentina disappointed with all the attacking players they have but then Messi does that in 90th min!
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    (Original post by The Rusty Spork)
    Brazil don't play anything close to tiki taka :lolwut:


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    :beer::beer:, Brazil play direct football, I would say they play more like Real Madrid than Barcelona in respect to their style!
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    Is there much to the cesc 'incident' at training or it's not as it appears?


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    Looks like Xavi is off then :sad:

    Losing 3 captains all in one season...
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    So there's rumours that suarez may be off to either real or barca. Barca reportedly offering around £40 million along with Sanchez.

    Safe it say if it was true, either team could be unstoppable
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    (Original post by Jordooooom)
    So there's rumours that suarez may be off to either real or barca. Barca reportedly offering around £40 million along with Sanchez.

    Safe it say if it was true, either team could be unstoppable
    Does Barca even need more attacking talent? Last time I checked their defence was their main weakness everybody has known for the last three years now Barca need a quality central defender, new right back and a new DLP/DM.
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    (Original post by Jordooooom)
    So there's rumours that suarez may be off to either real or barca. Barca reportedly offering around £40 million along with Sanchez.

    Safe it say if it was true, either team could be unstoppable
    Honestly as a footballing move I don't think it'd be brilliant for either team.

    Benzema holds the ball up better, is less greedy, and is quicker than Suarez, he suits their counter attack game more. Coming off his best ever season for them, it's a front line that clearly worked.

    And for Barca, they in a no9 so they can play Messi as the 10... Suarez isn't a conventional 9 at all, like Torres at his peak eg. He is versatile so when they're playing 4-3-3, he'd easily fit onto one of the wings, but he's not a classic 9. He's not a perfect finisher and you'd think with Neymar, Messi and Suarez you'd just have too many cooks? It's a scary, really scary thought to think of Suarez, Messi, Neymar and Iniesta in one team but idk if it'd ever work. If they want a striker off Liverpool, Sturridge is the one they should move for imo.

    But this is just a Liverpool fan not wanting his hero to be sold.
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    I know Perez has to make a statement signing but why can't it be Pogba?
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    (Original post by Jordooooom)
    So there's rumours that suarez may be off to either real or barca. Barca reportedly offering around £40 million along with Sanchez.

    Safe it say if it was true, either team could be unstoppable
    Personally wouldn't be that worried if Barca got him. He'll move Messi out wide or force them to play weird formations to get the best out of him. Honestly see an Ibra situation there. Suarez is too slow to be effective on the wing in Barca's system, I don't think that they have the players suited for a 4-2-3-1/4-2-4 if Suarez plays with Messi up top.

    Real however would have a clear improvement on Benzema, they're a DM away from dominating, they still lack that balance in the team I feel.
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    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/wor...e-session.html

    riding his little bike away :lol:
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    As predicted every club is pricing Barcelona out for a CB, thats what not buying one for so long does to you :lol:

    Marc Bartra as the new signing? :rofl:
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    (Original post by hello101010)
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/wor...e-session.html

    riding his little bike away :lol:
    That bike is jokes.
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    (Original post by 419)
    Is there much to the cesc 'incident' at training or it's not as it appears?


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    Nothing at all, they were playing in teams and one team was outnumbered, so VdB included Alonso and made Cesc switch teams.

    (Original post by CantTellMeNothin)
    Any news on where to? I got that impression that PSG had made it a done deal but it seems not... you wouldn't think Barca or Madrid are in for him, so that leaves PSG, Juve and the English teams. Arsenal, Liverpool, United in that order?
    Real rumours have popped up again & he'd fit into their transfer scheme (even though they don't need him), so wouldn't surprise me if they were intersted. Arsenal are surely in pole position wrt negotiations thanks to selling Vela's clause to Sociedad, but so far I've not seen anything substantial indicating that he'd be interested in a move there (or any PL club). PSG rumours have gone quiet, but Nasser is the only one responsible for negotiations there and he's been busy hanging around at the Roland Garros and now the WC. From what Griezi has said recently I'd still suspect PSG to be the favourite.

    And Lucho has said that Pedro isn't leaving, surely means that Sanchez is on his way out? Higuain comes in, with Neymar, Messi, Pedro, Deu on the wings? If Sanchez is leaving, is there anything aside from his previous Italy stay to suggest that Juve have an advantage over the same three English teams?
    When/where? Latest news is that Pedro will meet with Zubi & him right after the WC to discuss his situation, so in the coming days. Doubt he'll be sold as he's a canterano, but his situation has nothing to do with Alexis. The only scenario where it'd come down to Pedro or Alexis would be when a forward is signed, which isn't definite. Anyway, it seems Barça is open to sellling him, but not at all costs. What we definitely know so far is that Barto said he wasn't for sale & Barça have already rejected formal offers for him (at least according to more reliable sources). Could be that him leaving or not depends on what signings will be made. Got the impression that he'd want to leave though.

    If Sanchez is leaving, is there anything aside from his previous Italy stay to suggest that Juve have an advantage over the same three English teams?
    Not sure, some Italian papers (albeit not extremely reliable) wrote that he already had a verbal agreement with them. Also that he wanted to play with Vidal, but who knows if he'll stay. It's pure speculation from what I've seen.

    (Original post by American Boy)
    Depends on how Lucho wants to line up really. If he wants a 9 but as a plan B, then Llorente makes sense and Suarez doesn't.
    Yeah, but I was referring to how substantial the rumours are and so far all of them had more depth than the Suárez one. Also with CBs being overpriced Barça have only funds for 1 marquee signing, and atm a forward is not the priority. With Xavi likely leaving I think they'll focus on somebody like Koke and a less expensive forward first, or Marquinhos + somebody similarly expensive (e.g. Pipita). That said, Barça do have the funds to trigger LS' release clause because of the double budget from this and next window (transfer ban), but that'd leave only about 20m for CB signings so it'd probably only be the last resort.

    Anyway, I don't think Suárez would be an ideal fit at either club (RM or Barça). As for Barça, don't see any issues with Messi at all, but a lot of player roles would need to be adjusted in order to fit him in without sacrificing the stability of the system. You'd need Neymar to take over a more defensive role, Iniesta/Rafinha to be less attacking-minded and a FB exploiting the right side. Could work but not when your defence is already ****ed up in the first place. Much too complicated and doubt it's worth it. I'd rather change the system arond to get the best out of Neymar/Alexis.
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    (Original post by qua)
    Nothing at all, they were playing in teams and one team was outnumbered, so VdB included Alonso and made Cesc switch teams.
    I thought as much, he was smiling when going away on the bike. Really annoying how people doctored the video though.
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    (Original post by qua)
    With Xavi likely leaving I think they'll focus on somebody like Koke and a less expensive forward first. That said, Barça do have the funds to trigger his release clause because of the double budget from this and next window (transfer ban), but that'd leave only about 20m for CB signings so it'd probably only be the last resort.

    Anyway, I don't think Suárez would be an ideal fit at either club (RM or Barça). As for Barça, don't see any issues with Messi at all, but a lot of player roles would need to be adjusted in order to fit him in without sacrificing the stability of the system. You'd need Neymar to take over a more defensive role, Iniesta/Rafinha to be less attacking-minded and a FB exploiting the right side. Could work but not when your defence is already ****ed up in the first place. Much too complicated and doubt it's worth it. I'd rather change the system arond to get the best out of Neymar/Alexis.
    Why would Barca need an extra player like Koke to replace Xavi? They have Rafinha, iniesta and Rakitic for the 2 positions. It'll just lead to less gametime for Rafinha. Also is afellay still at the club? There's enough forwards imo to not need to buy another one, I can see the need for a no.9 though and ofc a top tier striker needs to be funded by a sale of a forward.

    Why wouldn't Suarez be an ideal fit for Madrid? He's a creator and scores a lot of goals. If the play mainly goes through him it still wouldn't affect the likes of Ronaldo and Bale goal wise. He's essentially a better version of Benzema, who I think is important for Madrids system, even if he's not that spectacular for them.
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    (Original post by jam278)
    Why would Barca need an extra player like Koke to replace Xavi? They have Rafinha, iniesta and Rakitic for the 2 positions. It'll just lead to less gametime for Rafinha. Also is afellay still at the club? There's enough forwards imo to not need to buy another one, I can see the need for a no.9 though and ofc a top tier striker needs to be funded by a sale of a forward.

    Why wouldn't Suarez be an ideal fit for Madrid? He's a creator and scores a lot of goals. If the play mainly goes through him it still wouldn't affect the likes of Ronaldo and Bale goal wise. He's essentially a better version of Benzema, who I think is important for Madrids system, even if he's not that spectacular for them.
    Suarez and Ronaldo take up virtually exactly the same space in a game.


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    (Original post by qua)
    Think VdB put it well after the game, this marks the end of a generation but hardly the end of an era for Spain. No matter what youth level you take, Spain have great players coming through in all positions, and most of them have been playing together for years in the youth teams (and won trophies - cf. last year). Once the transition to those is made (with Thiago/Koke as a first step), Spain could be as strong as ever and would still have enough experience in the team with Busquets, Cesc etc, too.

    I think this WC performance was evitable as well had VdB been a bit more blunt. In the test matches he used a setup similar to the one from the U21 Euros and it looked like the team had progressed enough to still be the top favourite for this WC. But now he unfortunately went back to his 2012 setup with the game-slowing double pivot and used more or less the same tactics as back then, as if the rest of the football world hadn't developed at all. I guess VdB belongs to the old guard just like Xavi, Iker, Alonso, Villa, Torres do, so it's probably time for him to leave. Quite sure he will too.
    Where will Iniesta fit into a new-look Spain?
 
 
 
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