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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    We don't, but you would expect that with several weeks and probably under the table help from America there'd be some progress.
    Just so we're clear, are you trying to suggest that everything is a fabrication and the separatists never had the missile system because if they had taken one then the Ukranian army would have surely taken it back before they could use it?
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    Just so we're clear, are you trying to suggest that everything is a fabrication and the separatists never had the missile system because if they had taken one then the Ukranian army would have surely taken it back before they could use it?
    No, I'm just saying, everybody is placing all the blame on Russia and the separatists and none on the "government", as the western media tells them to, rather than actually thinking about the situation from a logical standpoint.
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    (Original post by Zenomorph)
    Malays made a major F up, they are responsible, face it , get over it.
    People say that but there's roughly Three levels of the decision.

    The Aviation body of the airspace involved can decide, in this case I think it is Eurocontrol.

    The Government of the nation that the airspace covers can declare a no fly zone. Also their own independent aviation bodies can also do this.

    Then Finally the airline can decide.... problem is the airline will decide on information given to them by the above levels. If all of the above say it's safe to fly they will, of course they can decide against it, but they will not undergo in-depth checks on the safety of the airspace themselves. For starters who would share possibly confidential information with airlines that could be state owned by your opponents?

    Eurocontrol blame Ukraine, Pro-Russians blame the airline.

    I find it quite shocking really concerning the BBC's coverage how aviation experts said Malaysian Airlines would of relied on information given to them by these other organisations to base their decision and the BBC presenters then go "so it's Malaysian airline's fault".... only for the experts to say, they have the final call but they do not collect the information themselves and go on advise from these organisations. The presenter then went "so, yes it's the airlines responsibility?" :facepalm:
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    No, I'm just saying, everybody is placing all the blame on Russia and the separatists and none on the "government", as the western media tells them to, rather than actually thinking about the situation from a logical standpoint.
    The logical standpoint is that it was highly likely it was the separatists, which is the line western media have been going with.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    The logical standpoint is that it was highly likely it was the separatists, which is the line western media have been going with.
    Where did I say it wasn't. But it is foolish to place all the blame on a single person or organisation when several contributed to an event. Consider it this way, while the separatists almost certainly did do it, the "government" didn't appear to do anything to stop it, especially considering the wider system whereby it is in their interest to stop it (as explained, because if it weren't a civilian aircraft it would have been one of their military aircraft being hit).
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Where did I say it wasn't. But it is foolish to place all the blame on a single person or organisation when several contributed to an event. Consider it this way, while the separatists almost certainly did do it, the "government" didn't appear to do anything to stop it, especially considering the wider system whereby it is in their interest to stop it (as explained, because if it weren't a civilian aircraft it would have been one of their military aircraft being hit).
    Once the separatists took it, what were the Ukrainian government meant to do? It would have been held in an unknown location in separatist held territory.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    Once the separatists took it, what were the Ukrainian government meant to do? It would have been held in an unknown location in separatist held territory.
    And in today's day and age it's impossible to discover something that somebody doesn't want you to? I'm sure the separatists didn't want people to uncover evidence they [probably] shot down that plane, yet the evidence is still coming to light.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    And in today's day and age it's impossible to discover something that somebody doesn't want you to? I'm sure the separatists didn't want people to uncover evidence they [probably] shot down that plane, yet the evidence is still coming to light.
    There is a massive, massive difference between uncovering evidence of a missile launch against a passenger jet and the location of something not much bigger than a large van in hostile territory.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    There is a massive, massive difference between uncovering evidence of a missile launch against a passenger jet and the location of something not much bigger than a large van in hostile territory.
    Because in this day and age there is no such thing as satellite surveillance or logic.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Because in this day and age there is no such thing as satellite surveillance or logic.
    Please tell me how you find a large van in an area the size of Eastern Ukraine using logic, if you can do this then you should go and apply for a job with the military intelligence. It would be also very difficult to locate it using satellite surveillance (how many surveillance satellites do the Ukrainian government even have?)
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    Please tell me how you find a large van in an area the size of Eastern Ukraine using logic, if you can do this then you should go and apply for a job with the military intelligence. It would be also very difficult to locate it using satellite surveillance (how many surveillance satellites do the Ukrainian government even have?)
    Well, you use logic to narrow down a probable area for it to be in, what's the point in having it 200 miles from possible targets when it only has a range of 140K m for instance, and are you honestly saying that you believe that the US has NO involvement what so ever, despite the current government (or at least the senior members of) being unelected forming a puppet state for the west? If you honestly believe that Russia is helping the separatists then surely you can accept the concept that western governments are helping the "government" in Ukraine
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Well, you use logic to narrow down a probable area for it to be in, what's the point in having it 200 miles from possible targets when it only has a range of 140K m for instance, and are you honestly saying that you believe that the US has NO involvement what so ever, despite the current government (or at least the senior members of) being unelected forming a puppet state for the west? If you honestly believe that Russia is helping the separatists then surely you can accept the concept that western governments are helping the "government" in Ukraine
    It depends what you mean by support, providing military support? No, I don't believe they are and have seen nothing to suggest they are (besides a few bullet proof vests).

    Let's go with it for a second, say they narrow it down to dozen or so likely areas, then what? How do we go from a dozen or so likely areas to an exact location? Then how exactly are they meant to get it back? Then how exactly are they meant to transport it back to their own territory?

    There's some seriously impressive levels of mental gymnastics going on here in an attempt to shift the blame away from the separatists and onto the government.
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    Pro-Russian forces now accused of destroying evidence and moving the corpses, they don't help themselves do they.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    It depends what you mean by support, providing military support? No, I don't believe they are and have seen nothing to suggest they are (besides a few bullet proof vests).

    Let's go with it for a second, say they narrow it down to dozen or so likely areas, then what? How do we go from a dozen or so likely areas to an exact location? Then how exactly are they meant to get it back? Then how exactly are they meant to transport it back to their own territory?

    There's some seriously impressive levels of mental gymnastics going on here in an attempt to shift the blame away from the separatists and onto the government.
    I never said anything about getting it back. The "government" definitely has the capabilities to launch a long range attack, all their have to do is render it inoperable, preferably irreparable. And are you still holding onto that idea that a single person/party is responsible for everything, because it's rarely the case, especially in such a complex system.

    And you don't just look for the Buk itself, you look for indications that it has been somewhere, or is somewhere. Given they know it has been stolen, with some high res satellite imaging of the area they could get a rough idea of which way it went, for example. The Americans have plenty of experience looking for such systems throughout the Cold War and the Yugoslav Wars, you can get a good idea of where something is. There is no certainty in war, an attack on a suspected target could still be a dead end and result in the death of civilians, but just take a leaf from Israel's books. You were doing it to "protect your people" and it's a tragedy that civilians died as a result, the west will buy it and Russia will hate you either way.

    But yes, you seem to be of the mind that there is no real way to assist apart from providing manpower/hardware and only one person or group can be responsible for any given event.
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    (Original post by ThatNorthernLad)
    Pro-Russian forces now accused of destroying evidence and moving the corpses, they don't help themselves do they.
    And is it at all surprising that their opposition would make such claims? If they are doing such things, whoever it is giving the orders needs sacking.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I never said anything about getting it back. The "government" definitely has the capabilities to launch a long range attack, all their have to do is render it inoperable, preferably irreparable. And are you still holding onto that idea that a single person/party is responsible for everything, because it's rarely the case, especially in such a complex system.

    And you don't just look for the Buk itself, you look for indications that it has been somewhere, or is somewhere. Given they know it has been stolen, with some high res satellite imaging of the area they could get a rough idea of which way it went, for example. The Americans have plenty of experience looking for such systems throughout the Cold War and the Yugoslav Wars, you can get a good idea of where something is. There is no certainty in war, an attack on a suspected target could still be a dead end and result in the death of civilians, but just take a leaf from Israel's books. You were doing it to "protect your people" and it's a tragedy that civilians died as a result, the west will buy it and Russia will hate you either way.

    But yes, you seem to be of the mind that there is no real way to assist apart from providing manpower/hardware and only one person or group can be responsible for any given event.
    This all hinges on the assumption that there was a high res surveillance satellite over this military base, why are we making this assumption and what if there wasn't?

    Also, blowing up areas because you think there might be a weapon there is legally classed as a war crime. So there an evil fascist right sector junta if they do and an evil fascist right sector junta if they don't.

    Of course the situation in Ukraine is complex but if it was the separatists that shot down the plane then they bear full responsibility for the shooting and trying to attribute blame elsewhere is ridiculous.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    This all hinges on the assumption that there was a high res surveillance satellite over this military base, why are we making this assumption and what if there wasn't?
    You don't have to watch something as it happens to know it happened, or are trackers a total waste of time when hunting, "He didn't see the deer come through here so it is impossible for him to know with any certainty that it did."

    Also, blowing up areas because you think there might be a weapon there is legally classed as a war crime. So there an evil fascist right sector junta if they do and an evil fascist right sector junta if they don't.
    Go take Israel, USA, UK etc to court then. In fact, almost every country that has engaged in modern warfare.

    Of course the situation in Ukraine is complex but if it was the separatists that shot down the plane then they bear full responsibility for the shooting and trying to attribute blame elsewhere is ridiculous.
    Does that mean that if somebody sells me an illegal firearm and I shoot you with it, that person bears absolutely no responsibility? After all, had they not provided me with that weapon I may not have shot you, that person selling that gun enabled the crime.
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    Before it was MH370 where the plane went missing. Now its another one which is MH17 and it was a plane crash. Such sad news...
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    the video footage is horrific, poor people. i really hope they did lose consciousness, very quickly when they were hit with the missile, and it wasn't a case of dying because of impact on the ground.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You don't have to watch something as it happens to know it happened, or are trackers a total waste of time when hunting, "He didn't see the deer come through here so it is impossible for him to know with any certainty that it did."
    This is irrelevant and answers none of my questions.


    Go take Israel, USA, UK etc to court then. In fact, almost every country that has engaged in modern warfare.
    Whataboutism.


    Does that mean that if somebody sells me an illegal firearm and I shoot you with it, that person bears absolutely no responsibility? After all, had they not provided me with that weapon I may not have shot you, that person selling that gun enabled the crime.
    I'm unsure what point you're attempting to make here, but whatever it is it doesn't work. The weapon originated from the USSR and and the separatists took it from the Ukrainian government, it wasn't given to them. A better analogy would be if I stoke a kitchen knife from Tesco then stabbed someone with it, would Tesco bear no responsibility for enabling the crime?
 
 
 
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