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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Why does HAMAS need to be ousted? Surely the first step is lifting the economic blockade imposed by the SS/SC, no?
    No that will never work, NEVER! HAMAS will direct all the trade towards their political motives. The blockade is there to restrict the influx of military arms from the likes of Iran, Syria and Qatar. The building materials coming in were used for illegal tunnel and underground networks rather than much needed infrastructure. It is pointless. HAMAS have no care for the economic stability and will never contribute to it. If HAMAS is ousted a government which focuses on the social, economic and environmental needs of it's people will turn the nation around.

    HAMAS defaulted on it's promise for a 2010 presidential election as well as the 2011 and 2012 local elections. In a few years of presidential term HAMAS have already eliminated democracy in the region.
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    Free Palestine !
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    (Original post by The Right)
    No that will never work, NEVER! HAMAS will direct all the trade towards their political motives. The blockade is there to restrict the influx of military arms from the likes of Iran, Syria and Qatar. The building materials coming in were used for illegal tunnel and underground networks rather than much needed infrastructure. It is pointless. HAMAS have no care for the economic stability and will never contribute to it. If HAMAS is ousted a government which focuses on the social, economic and environmental needs of it's people will turn the nation around.
    Who is talking about trade "coming in"? Why don't we start off with exports and then talk about imports?

    Surely even you can't find any objections to exports from Gaza, can you?

    HAMAS defaulted on it's promise for a 2010 presidential election as well as the 2011 and 2012 local elections. In a few years of presidential term HAMAS have already eliminated democracy in the region.
    Why are you complaining about democracy when the PA, upon the instruction or with the tacit approval of the US and the SS/SC, tried to oust HAMAS from power after they won in the landslide elections?

    Furthermore, when HAMAS and the PA struck a unity agreement in April of this year with a view to holding elections in 6 months, it was written off as a gimmick but when steps were taken by HAMAS personnel to actually form the government in preparation for the elections, the Israel suddenly realised that the Palestinians were dead serious and so they started a war, hoping that it would derail the Palestinian plans by putting the PA and HAMAS at odds with each other.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Who is talking about trade "coming in"? Why don't we start off with exports and then talk about imports?

    Surely even you can't find any objections to exports from Gaza, can you?



    Why are you complaining about democracy when the PA, upon the instruction or with the tacit approval of the US and the SS/SC, tried to oust HAMAS from power after they won in the landslide elections?

    Furthermore, when HAMAS and the PA struck a unity agreement in April of this year with a view to holding elections in 6 months, it was written off as a gimmick but when steps were taken by HAMAS personnel to actually form the government in preparation for the elections, the SS/SC suddenly realised that the Palestinians were dead serious and so they started a war, hoping that it would derail the Palestinian plans by putting the PA and HAMAS at odds with each other.
    Exports are not really an issue but the problem is for Gaza to even establish trade links they first need investment into the region and consequently the movement of recourses for infrastructure. Israel have practically levelled the strip and so we need investors to be willing to rebuild it. HAMAS has restricted all economic growth so their current economic potential will not suffice for redevelopment. They are relying on aid however this is more human aid rather than economic aid. We need a government that will regulate the movement of goods in and out of Gaza with no political motive(that being the annihilation of Israel). We need a government whose sole focus is on development(not the eradication of an entire nation).

    Your second point is debatable. Your views would match up with Al Jazeera for example yet contrast with that of popular western organisations(governmental, media and NGO). It is who you believe at the end of the day so I could argue(and we consequently end up with the Zionist or ISIS argument we had before) or we just agree to disagree. I am happy to follow on with the issue but honestly I am tired of the arguments people have on this thread. Let's just stick to things we can all agree on.
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    (Original post by The Right)
    Exports are not really an issue but the problem is for Gaza to even establish trade links they first need investment into the region and consequently the movement of recourses for infrastructure. Israel have practically levelled the strip and so we need investors to be willing to rebuild it. HAMAS has restricted all economic growth so their current economic potential will not suffice for redevelopment. They are relying on aid however this is more human aid rather than economic aid. We need a government that will regulate the movement of goods in and out of Gaza with no political motive(that being the annihilation of Israel). We need a government whose sole focus is on development(not the eradication of an entire nation).
    How have HAMAS "restricted all economic growth"?

    Your second point is debatable. Your views would match up with Al Jazeera for example yet contrast with that of popular western organisations(governmental, media and NGO). It is who you believe at the end of the day so I could argue(and we consequently end up with the Zionist or ISIS argument we had before) or we just agree to disagree. I am happy to follow on with the issue but honestly I am tired of the arguments people have on this thread. Let's just stick to things we can all agree on.
    Do they? I didn't know that.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    How have HAMAS "restricted all economic growth"?



    Do they? I didn't know that.
    Well they have released next to no economic policies. They have no manifesto for their economic plans(which evidently do not exist). There are no economic ministers within HAMAS. This shows similar characteristics to the Muslim brotherhood who were ousted on the fact they lacked economic potential and were solely interested in their political motives being the establishment of religious values in the nation of Egypt. They were a very religious based party and that was their prime motive. HAMAS have been known to use aid funding on their military projects against Israel. Their argument is the money is required for their defensive measures however we all know they will achieve nothing militarily. Israel over power them. The funds would be best directed to economic development. They have starved Palestine of much needed economic infrastructure. Education facilities have downgraded under HAMAS.

    Well few believe HAMAS promised the Palestinian authorities an election at any level. Even if they did based on their history of promising elections it has transferred to an actual election 0% of the time. Why would HAMAS of delivered differently this time? How have they changed to become democratic?

    To say Israel was threatened by the prospect of this and consequently went on the offensive is stupid I am sorry. There was rocket fire and illegal tunnel networks which were reason enough to launch any offensive. I am interested why Israel would feel threatened by any potential election. Are they scared Hamas would be re-elected? Did they want to make sure the people have less reason to re-elect them?
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    'Palestinian' politician salutes ISIS, says they are based on the Koran. He also says he hoped Syrian soldiers were slaughtered 100,000 times over.



    "peaceful" 'palestinains.

    Makes you want to give them a state :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    How have HAMAS "restricted all economic growth"?



    Do they? I didn't know that.
    I don't see how people can try to defend Hamas, they are a terrorist organisation, unfortunately with them in charge the Gaza won't be prosperous anytime soon.
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    (Original post by cizzlar)
    I don't see how people can try to defend Hamas, they are a terrorist organisation, unfortunately with them in charge the Gaza won't be prosperous anytime soon.
    So HAMAS are stopping Palestinians from exporting goods out of Gaza?
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    (Original post by The Right)
    Well they have released next to no economic policies. They have no manifesto for their economic plans(which evidently do not exist). There are no economic ministers within HAMAS. This shows similar characteristics to the Muslim brotherhood who were ousted on the fact they lacked economic potential and were solely interested in their political motives being the establishment of religious values in the nation of Egypt. They were a very religious based party and that was their prime motive. HAMAS have been known to use aid funding on their military projects against Israel. Their argument is the money is required for their defensive measures however we all know they will achieve nothing militarily. Israel over power them. The funds would be best directed to economic development. They have starved Palestine of much needed economic infrastructure. Education facilities have downgraded under HAMAS.
    It is a little hard to implement economic policies when you are under siege by the SS/SC. It means you control virtually no aspect of your economic policy.

    Take exports and tax receipts. Both are controlled by the SS/SC, are they not?

    Well few believe HAMAS promised the Palestinian authorities an election at any level. Even if they did based on their history of promising elections it has transferred to an actual election 0% of the time. Why would HAMAS of delivered differently this time? How have they changed to become democratic?
    Well, when there is an attempted coup, 3 periodic wars, a siege in place, and dirty tactics engaged in by your opponents, one can reasonably understand that it is a little difficult to hold elections.

    To say Israel was threatened by the prospect of this and consequently went on the offensive is stupid I am sorry. There was rocket fire and illegal tunnel networks which were reason enough to launch any offensive. I am interested why Israel would feel threatened by any potential election. Are they scared Hamas would be re-elected? Did they want to make sure the people have less reason to re-elect them?
    There was rocket fire in 2012, 2013 and 2014. There was no war.

    The tunnel networks were only added AFTER the SS/SC became aware of their existence. In fact, in the lead up to the operation, instigated by the stepping down of the HAMAS government, there were multiple arrests in the WB of HAMAS officials.

    The SS/SC realised that if this unity government was to go ahead, then Fatah will become more like HAMAS (in fact, the rhetoric and differences between both groups is vanishing).

    Spoiler:
    Show
    Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh and his "[COLOR=#0000CC !important]cabinet[/COLOR]" in Gaza have resigned, Hamas spokeswoman Israa al-Mudallal said, "paving the way for the new ministers of the consensus government."

    Haniyeh welcomed the new cabinet as "a [COLOR=#0000CC !important]government of one people and one political [COLOR=#0000CC !important]system[/COLOR]."

    [/COLOR]
    "We're leaving the government, but not the nation. We're leaving the ministries but not the question of the nation," Haniyeh said in a televised [COLOR=#0000CC !important]speech.

    [/COLOR]
    Hamas and Fatah swore in a "unity" government earlier Monday, despite last-minute tensions which almost prevented the Palestinian Arab reconciliation. The joint government elected Palestinian Authority (PA) [COLOR=#0000CC !important]officialRami Hamdallah as Prime Minister.

    [/COLOR]
    Former PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas has insisted that a 'unity' governmentwould be based on what he called"the four Palestinian principles": recognizing Israel, recognizing the terms of international agreements, and the explicit rejection of violence and terrorism.


    Haniyeh's step down, meanwhile, is a [COLOR=#0000CC !important]dramatic about-face, after Hamas was adamant over its full control of a "unity" government, expressing over and over again that it would remain in control of both Gaza and the PA after elections and insisting that Haniyeh would rule the government.[/COLOR]
    More recently, Hamas announced that any "unity" government would be unequivocally subject to their approval before being established.


    The group’s charter calls for the destruction of Israel, and at least one topofficial has ruled out the possibility that Hamas will recognize “the Zionist entity,” even after the unity pact with Fatah.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So HAMAS are stopping Palestinians from exporting goods out of Gaza?
    Yes they are, because they are a terrorist organisation...the EU or USA certainly would not trade with them also throughout history countries/territories deemed a threat have been blockaded or had sanctions that would affect them placed on them. I wouldn't want terrorists next door to me to gain the ability to more arms that would be used indiscriminately to attack their neighbours.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So HAMAS are stopping Palestinians from exporting goods out of Gaza?
    Furthermore you'll find the Palestinians in the west bank can import and export more freely plus they are able to get fdi etc...why? no islamic extremists in charge.
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    (Original post by cizzlar)
    Yes they are, because they are a terrorist organisation...the EU or USA certainly would not trade with them also throughout history countries/territories deemed a threat have been blockaded or had sanctions that would affect them placed on them. I wouldn't want terrorists next door to me to gain the ability to more arms that would be used indiscriminately to attack their neighbours.
    The UK does not consider HAMAS to be a terrorist organisation.

    (Original post by cizzlar)
    Furthermore you'll find the Palestinians in the west bank can import and export more freely plus they are able to get fdi etc...why? no islamic extremists in charge.
    Well, they have settlers and colonizers on their land. Would you rather be colonised and have minimal trade or be free under siege?

    That's a tough one...
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    The UK does not consider HAMAS to be a terrorist organisation.



    Well, they have settlers and colonizers on their land. Would you rather be colonised and have minimal trade or be free under siege?

    That's a tough one...
    the EU considers Hamas a terrorist organisation, and the Uk is part of the EU, so even if the Uk doesn't consider them terrorists, the majority of the Democratic states in the EU do. So I don't know what point your trying to prove is.

    To say Israel is colonising is just silly, everyone knows the only reason Israel is in the west bank is because it fought a series of defensive wars many years ago backed by the US which led to Israel beating back numerically superior Arabic armies. They have occupied the land ever since, mainly for security reasons.
    if militant groups weren't in charge that were seeking the destruction of Israel a two state solution could be on the horizon.
    Yes that will involve alot of negotiations and will take time.
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    (Original post by cizzlar)
    the EU considers Hamas a terrorist organisation, and the Uk is part of the EU, so even if the Uk doesn't consider them terrorists, the majority of the Democratic states in the EU do. So I don't know what point your trying to prove is.
    So why does the UK operate a separate list of terror organisations if the UK's list and the EU's list are, as you claim, "interchangeable"?

    Surely the presence of an active and periodically updated list suggests that the UK does not consider HAMAS to be a terrorist organisation?

    To say Israel is colonising is just silly, everyone knows the only reason Israel is in the west bank is because it fought a series of defensive wars many years ago backed by the US which led to Israel beating back numerically superior Arabic armies. They have occupied the land ever since, mainly for security reasons.
    So they are colonisers? Well, I could have told you that at the start but you've just written an entire paragraph stating that they are not but then you conclude by saying they are occupying and have settlers which is in effect, a colony.

    Well done for defeating your own point and adding strength to my argument. My only hope is that others, who were like you, realise this...

    if militant groups weren't in charge that were seeking the destruction of Israel a two state solution could be on the horizon.
    Yes that will involve alot of negotiations and will take time.
    But Fatah are not a terrorist organisation, nor are they seeking the destruction of the SS/SC State yet no one wants to give them a state? :confused:
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So why does the UK operate a separate list of terror organisations if the UK's list and the EU's list are, as you claim, "interchangeable"

    Surely the presence of an active and periodically updated list suggests that the UK does not consider HAMAS to be a terrorist organisation?
    please tell me where I say they are interchangeable and plus the UK does consider Hamas's military wing terrorists so as far as I'm concerned that's made you look silly and that's the end of that point.

    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So they are colonisers? Well, I could have told you that at the start but you've just written an entire paragraph stating that they are not but then you conclude by saying they are occupying and have settlers which is in effect, a colony.

    Well done for defeating your own point and adding strength to my argument. My only hope is that others, who were like you, realise this...
    Occupying has a different definition to colonising, obviosuly you're making yourself look silly so heres a couple of links to the definitions of both. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/colonise http://www.thefreedictionary.com/occupy
    Now the reason why they are occupying is up for or debate, I like to think its because they still face a threat from various Palestinian terrorists in the region and its not like Israeli troops are controlling all of the west bank. [/QUOTE]



    (Original post by tsr1269)
    But Fatah are not a terrorist organisation, nor are they seeking the destruction of the SS/SC State yet no one wants to give them a state? :confused:
    Now you're making things up again, I never said Fatah were but for a two state solution to work well Fatah or other non-terrorist organisations need to be in control of all the Palestinian lands so that includes the west bank aswell as Gaza. As soon as this is sorted the other problems like Israeli settlers in the west bank can be sorted, I personally believe Israel could get all the settlers out of occupied lands if they wanted too, all the settlers in Gaza were taken out in 2005.

    Maybe I could of given more detail in my earlier reply to you but the fact you're grasping at straws by saying i've said things which I clearly haven't just shows that when you aren't biased and influenced by others and look at things impartially like me you lose...*****
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    (Original post by cizzlar)
    please tell me where I say they are interchangeable and plus the UK does consider Hamas's military wing terrorists so as far as I'm concerned that's made you look silly and that's the end of that point.
    You said that the "UK is part of the EU..blah blah" implying that the UK supports or at the very least agrees with the EU's terror list.Iz

    HAMAS is a lot more than just it's military wing.

    Occupying has a different definition to colonising, obviosuly you're making yourself look silly so heres a couple of links to the definitions of both. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/colonise http://www.thefreedictionary.com/occupy
    And the SS/SC has engaged in both effective colonisation and occupation of the Palestinian territories.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    You said that the "UK is part of the EU..blah blah" implying that the UK supports or at the very least agrees with the EU's terror list.Iz

    HAMAS is a lot more than just it's military wing.
    It doesn't matter if 'Hamas is alot more than its military wing', if there military wing carries out acts of terrorism , that justifies not letting Hamas do as it wants. It justifies Israel blockading through the fear of Hamas's military wing obtaining more tools too carry out more terrorism.
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    Rocket fired from the terrorist entity of Gaza into Israel
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Rocket fired from the terrorist entity of Gaza into Israel
    You failed to mention that the militants have already been arrested by Hamas http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...571864,00.html
 
 
 
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