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    (Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish)
    If Israel could be certain that any new Arab state established west of the Jordan would be a peaceful, tolerant, enlightened partner in sharing the land, in perpetuity, with never any risk of this changing, a huge amount of problems would be solved. Not all of them, by a long shot, but many. Israel could afford to give up control of the hills of Samaria knowing that they would never be used to launch rockets on Israeli population centres. Israel could afford to give up control of Hevron knowing that the Jews living there would be safe and that Jews could always come to visit the holy site. Israel could give up control of the historic cemetery on the Mount of Olives, knowing that this time, it would never be smashed up to provide building materials for latrines and roads. Israel could make huge concessions, knowing that that would be it, that they would never be taken as merely a starting point from which the Arabs would continue to work for the total destruction of Israel.
    And what will the Palestinians get in return? If they sincerely signed a peace, will they know that there will never be another invasion, another occupation, another Nakba? Will they know that the Israeli Arabs will always be considered full Israeli citizens with the same rights as Jews?


    Unfortunately, this is nothing but the most unrealistic of fantasies. Israel must act according to the overwhelming evidence: assuming that any Arab state of Palestine would be a hostile, intolerant, aggressive entity serving only as a base for increased attacks on Israel and her citizens and further attempts to drive the Jews from the land once and for all.
    You mean like Jordan and Egypt have been since they signed peace deals with Israel?

    Oh wait.
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    The U.S should just stay out of this at this point and disassociate themselves from the conflict entirely.

    All it does is enrage the Muslim world through public re-armament of the Israeli military.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    And what will the Palestinians get in return? If they sincerely signed a peace, will they know that there will never be another invasion, another occupation, another Nakba? Will they know that the Israeli Arabs will always be considered full Israeli citizens with the same rights as Jews?
    If you doubt, even for a second, that Israel would jump to embrace fully and joyously such an arrangement, such a parter, you simply don't understand Israeli society. Israel wants this so badly that she keeps trying to convince herself that this situation, a ludicrously unrealistic fantasy, is just around the corner, if we just try a little harder, if we just make a few more concessions, and a few more, and a few more. How else do you explain the entire Israeli left, centre, and even centre-right? Israel has to be one of the least militaristic militarized states in existence. The army is central to Israeli culture, everywhere, inescapable, and people are proud of the military because it's about the Jews, the world's punching bag for millennia, not being helpless anymore. But along with that there's also an immense regret that it's necessary and a longing for the day (an impossible dream of course) when it won't be.


    (Original post by anarchism101)
    You mean like Jordan and Egypt have been since they signed peace deals with Israel?

    Oh wait.
    Surely you're perceptive enough to understand why neither situation is comparable. We are not talking about peace with an established separate state with functioning institutions and a distinct, distant centre of gravity, in terms of both identity and geography, with which there is a natural border and/or effective buffer zone.

    Rather, we are talking about the creation of a ready-made failed state, torn between rival militant groups, whose centre of gravity is the same as Israel's and whose identity is based on the idea of conflict with Israel, with no geographical separation to the point of overlapping.

    Already, the only thing keeping Hamas from overthrowing Fatah and throwing Abbas off a roof is Israel, and even Abbas knows it. But his Fatah isn't exactly sweetness and light either; they only look good in comparison to Hamas, who everyone will soon be calling moderate because they're tame compared to the new kid on the block, ISIS.
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    (Original post by beautifulxxx)
    Yeah well welcome to the perfect planet earth, where life works that way.
    Isn't this what I'm saying? It's nice to wish for peace, to support the concept of peace. But hoping is not a realistic policy position. We have to live in this world.

    (Original post by beautifulxxx)
    How can you determine what you've stated in your first paragraph? Are you saying that because it's obvious or do you have some substance to your argument?
    Which bit, exactly?
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    (Original post by shawashawa)
    But if you look at media it looks like Israel is promoted. The fact that Palestine is not even on the map says a lot. I know you're for peace but dont you feel that the Palestinians are treated even worse, i mean if you look at the maps they are literally left with nothing of what was their land to begin with !!! Do you think it is unfair that; Israel dictates what the Palestinians eat and when they are allowed to have water. On some days they might not get water and strawberries and many other fruits are banned.
    There are a many, many things in this post and your previous one which suggest that you may not have the best and most complete grasp of the situation. However, what caught my eye is the strawberries. Both Gaza and Yehuda vShomron (the West Bank) are large-scale producers of strawberries, and the fruit, when it is in season, is readily available. Indeed, complaints regarding strawberries have focused on difficulties in exporting the crop to Europe and elsewhere.
    This is just one of many things that indicates that you have either greatly misunderstood your sources or are relying on some extremely faulty ones.
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    (Original post by Spaz Man)
    The U.S should just stay out of this at this point and disassociate themselves from the conflict entirely.

    All it does is enrage the Muslim world through public re-armament of the Israeli military.
    America cares far, far more about its massively powerful military-industrial complex and the massively influential Israeli lobby than it does about enraging the Muslim world.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    America cares far, far more about its massively powerful military-industrial complex and the massively influential Israeli lobby than it does about enraging the Muslim world.
    Of course but as the region-wide Islamist insurgency grows and grows, it might start to creep into their (the politicians') thick heads.
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    (Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish)
    If you doubt, even for a second, that Israel would jump to embrace fully and joyously such an arrangement, such a parter, you simply don't understand Israeli society.
    Nice No True Scotsman there.

    Israel wants this so badly that she keeps trying to convince herself that this situation, a ludicrously unrealistic fantasy, is just around the corner, if we just try a little harder, if we just make a few more concessions, and a few more, and a few more.
    What concessions? In 1993, the PLO gave up their claim to everything outside the West Bank and Gaza. They put their guns down and gave up fighting. In return, they got the power to deal with a few minor things in a few chunks of the West Bank and Gaza, and the promise of Israel that one day they'd probably get a state of some sort. But the occupation went on, the settlements kept expanding. As they do to today, there are more settlers than there have ever been.

    How else do you explain the entire Israeli left, centre, and even centre-right?
    Expand a bit? It's kind of difficult to guess what exactly you mean by that?

    Israel has to be one of the least militaristic militarized states in existence.
    Try again, it should be obvious why that doesn't make sense.

    The army is central to Israeli culture, everywhere, inescapable, and people are proud of the military because it's about the Jews, the world's punching bag for millennia, not being helpless anymore. But along with that there's also an immense regret that it's necessary and a longing for the day (an impossible dream of course) when it won't be.
    That's what pretty much every militarised country claims.


    Surely you're perceptive enough to understand why neither situation is comparable. We are not talking about peace with an established separate state with functioning institutions and a distinct, distant centre of gravity, in terms of both identity and geography, with which there is a natural border and/or effective buffer zone.

    Rather, we are talking about the creation of a ready-made failed state, torn between rival militant groups, whose centre of gravity is the same as Israel's and whose identity is based on the idea of conflict with Israel, with no geographical separation to the point of overlapping.
    And every effort by the Palestinians to move towards having a viable state has been opposed by Israel. When Palestine held free and fair elections in 2006, they were immediately met with sanctions for electing the 'wrong' people. Israel opposes the PLO's efforts to negotiate a unity government with Hamas to achieve a basic state requirement of controlling their territory. They even opposed something as basic and symbolic as Palestine becoming a UN member.

    Already, the only thing keeping Hamas from overthrowing Fatah and throwing Abbas off a roof is Israel, and even Abbas knows it. But his Fatah isn't exactly sweetness and light either; they only look good in comparison to Hamas, who everyone will soon be calling moderate because they're tame compared to the new kid on the block, ISIS.
    Hamas have been in power for less than 10 years. They're just an excuse - Israel was just as reluctant to make peace before 2006. In fact, arguably the most forthcoming Israeli PM in terms of peace - Ehud Olmert - came after the Hamas takeover of Gaza.
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    (Original post by aspiring_dr)
    I am not an expert in the Israeli-Palestinian history/conflict but I am a human with enough knowledge to say we should do our best to stop the conflict. Who's right and who's wrong can be discussed when innocent people aren't dying from air strikes and bombs. Right now they need help, fast. Whoever is injured and whatever side of the border. We need to help because we humans need to show humanity.
    specially seeing as we ****ing started it- though tbh the wests attempt to help would probably to drop a nuclear bomb on the whole of Jerusalem
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    And every effort by the Palestinians to move towards having a viable state has been opposed by Israel. When Palestine held free and fair elections in 2006, they were immediately met with sanctions for electing the 'wrong' people. Israel opposes the PLO's efforts to negotiate a unity government with Hamas to achieve a basic state requirement of controlling their territory. They even opposed something as basic and symbolic as Palestine becoming a UN member.
    And you completely forgot to mention that whenever Israel opposing it isn't enough they go and get their friends on Capitol Hill to oppose it and then everything is guaranteed to grind to a halt.
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    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
    Israel is a terrorist nation. Look at all the innocent people they've killed.


    Real Jews know how it is.
    love this- so true
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    (Original post by GrapeLeaves)
    CNN: Israel drops leaflets warning Gaza residents to evacuate ahead of strikes

    Jerusalem (CNN) -- Israeli forces dropped leaflets in northern Gaza on Sunday to warn residents to move away from Hamas sites to avoid military strikes.

    Battle over 'human shields'

    Video on Hamas-run television showed a Hamas spokesman urging people to serve as human shields, CNN's Jake Tapper reported Thursday.

    Palestinian sources have also described some deaths in the conflict as being people who formed a "human shield."
    But former Palestinian adviser Diana Buttu told "The Lead with Jake Tapper" that she does not believe "people are going to listen to somebody who says stay inside while your house is being bombed."

    Hamas, the Palestinian militant group that controls Gaza, regularly uses sites and facilities populated by civilians.

    "The leadership of Hamas and the other organizations has chosen -- at a time when they are using the population of Gaza as human shields -- to hide under ground, to flee abroad and to deliberately put civilians in the line of fire," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told a Cabinet meeting Sunday.

    "This is the entire difference between us and Hamas -- we are using defensive systems against missiles to protect the residents of Israel, and they are using the residents of Gaza to protect arsenals of missiles. Nothing better underscores the difference in this campaign. Israel is a democracy that is fighting -- in a legitimate and focused manner -- against unbridled terrorists," he said.

    Throughout the conflict, Israel has warned Gaza residents of upcoming attacks targeting militants and terrorist infrastructure. On Twitter on Sunday, the IDF posted: "To warn civilians of an impending strike, the IDF drops leaflets, makes personalized phone calls & sends SMSes. How many militaries do that?"
    "Sirens heard across (Israel). Gaza terrorists are firing barrages of rockets. Israel is under attack," the IDF posted, with a photo asking "What would you do?"

    The leaflets told residents which roads were safe to take and gave a time frame. "The IDF is not interested in hurting you or your family members. These operations are limited and short. Whoever does not adhere to these instructions and does not vacate their house immediately is subjecting their lives and the lives of their children and family to danger," the leaflet said.

    The Israeli military said it also drops empty shells on roofs, an operation it calls "roof knocking," to alert civilians that airstrikes are imminent.
    um look up palestinian deaths vs israeli deaths...
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    (Original post by hdaindak)
    um look up palestinian deaths vs israeli deaths...
    So quantity of deaths determines who is right? Pretty sure more people died on the Nazi side.
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    (Original post by DErasmus)
    So quantity of deaths determines who is right? Pretty sure more people died on the Nazi side.
    No, more people died on the Allied side due to the huge number of Soviet deaths.

    Death tolls of course don't necessarily determine who is right, but they can often indicate which side is the more endangered, victimised one.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    No, more people died on the Allied side due to the huge number of Soviet deaths.

    Death tolls of course don't necessarily determine who is right, but they can often indicate which side is the more endangered, victimised one.
    I don't think they do. It's not a question of quantity and that you can be deceived so easily is quite disturbing. Palestine's rulers use their people as cattle for their terrorist foreign agenda.
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    (Original post by DErasmus)
    So quantity of deaths determines who is right? Pretty sure more people died on the Nazi side.
    well thats a load of ****... it proves that this is the genocide of one race as opposed to any kind of fair war between them
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    (Original post by hdaindak)
    well thats a load of ****... it proves that this is the genocide of one race as opposed to any kind of fair war between them
    Palestine (Hamas not the people) use ROCKETS that have injured thousands, honestly I don't understand why the left are so retarded when it comes to foreign policy, what is it? Belief that the West are 'neo imperialists', because its the black man vs the white man the white man must be wrong (cus the West are super racist despite having the most progressive laws)? Is it anti-Semitism? Love of Islam? I honestly can't make any sense out of the people who support a terrorist group that aggressively fires rockets at a soverign democratic country surrounded mainly by lunatics stuck in the 7th century.
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    (Original post by DErasmus)
    Palestine (Hamas not the people) use ROCKETS that have injured thousands, honestly I don't understand why the left are so retarded when it comes to foreign policy, what is it? Belief that the West are 'neo imperialists', because its the black man vs the white man the white man must be wrong (cus the West are super racist despite having the most progressive laws)? Is it anti-Semitism? Love of Islam? I honestly can't make any sense out of the people who support a terrorist group that aggressively fires rockets at a soverign democratic country surrounded mainly by lunatics stuck in the 7th century.
    hamas is a response to israel's barbaric actions.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Nice No True Scotsman there.
    This is not a no true Scotsman. I am not moving any goalposts to maintain a disproven assertion. Rather, I am suggesting that you, personally, have a poor understanding of Israeli society, and going on to explain why your statements suggest that conclusion, by providing an explanation of the particular aspects of Israeli society which you appear not to understand.
    (Original post by anarchism101)
    What concessions? In 1993, the PLO gave up their claim to everything outside the West Bank and Gaza. They put their guns down and gave up fighting. In return, they got the power to deal with a few minor things in a few chunks of the West Bank and Gaza, and the promise of Israel that one day they'd probably get a state of some sort. But the occupation went on, the settlements kept expanding. As they do to today, there are more settlers than there have ever been.
    You assume from the beginning something wholly false, namely that the PLO, now the PA, is somehow the default sovereign authority for Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, and even has claims to the rest of the land of Israel. In reality, the whole of the PA's administrative power over anything at all, and indeed it's very existence as an Authority, rather than an underground terrorist group, is an Israeli concession. Nor did Israel ever enter into any agreement with the PA that she would not continue to develop Israeli communities in the territories she did not hand over to PA control. This idea that there is any legal or moral imperative that the territories in Judea and Samaria which were not granted to the PA at Oslo should end up in their control, or that they somehow 'default' to the control of the PA, which has never had any control over them and certainly has no greater claim than Israel by any number of different metrics, is one of the most pernicious myths of this whole situation.

    Add on to this the periodic releases of the most brutal terrorist murderers, who are celebrated as heroes by the PA, the denial, by Israel, of the Jewish right to even share their most important holy site in the whole world in order to appease both the PA and Jordan, the Israeli provision of free electricity and facilitation of aid transfer to Gaza even in the middle of a war, and you have a long list of concessions that have not bought even enough quiet to merely make up for the damage they have caused, much less brought true peace any closer. They have not even stopped the attempts of the PA to destroy Israel. They have switched (for the most part) to a diplomatic strategy for the first stage, the establishment of an Arab state in the Territories, but they have not given up the ultimate goal.

    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Expand a bit? It's kind of difficult to guess what exactly you mean by that?
    This assumes (perhaps mistakenly) some basic familiarity with Israeli politics, and refers to the groups who continue to push for concessions. All the way from the left to the centre-right, you have believers in the concession model. This speaks not to the proven effectiveness of concessions, but rather to the great national yearning to believe that if we just give a little more, and a little more, and a little more, our enemies will somehow stop trying to utterly destroy us.


    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Try again, it should be obvious why that doesn't make sense.
    On the contrary. I explained it fully.


    (Original post by anarchism101)
    That's what pretty much every militarised country claims.
    This is outstandingly myopic, assuming that every society in the world is the same as western Europe of the past 40 years or so, and that there are no societies that revel in their militarism and see it as an inherent virtue, as opposed to a neccessity. Are you serious?

    (Original post by anarchism101)
    And every effort by the Palestinians to move towards having a viable state has been opposed by Israel. When Palestine held free and fair elections in 2006, they were immediately met with sanctions for electing the 'wrong' people. Israel opposes the PLO's efforts to negotiate a unity government with Hamas to achieve a basic state requirement of controlling their territory. They even opposed something as basic and symbolic as Palestine becoming a UN member.
    So the first free and fair elections of this proto-state bring to power an Islamist terrorist group sworn to the violent destruction of Israel and the global destruction of the Jews, and active in pursuing this goal. And you think that Israel should have given this government, and their goals, full cooperation. And you think Israel should support further attempts to bring these people back into the PA, because otherwise it won't represent all the Palestinian Arabs. You are arguing that the democratic will of the Palestinian Arabs is entirely hostile to peace, negotiations, cooperation, and that a government which does not wage war on Israel and try to kill as many random Jews as possible cannot ever successfully and faithfully represent the Palestinian people. Let's think about that for a bit.

    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Hamas have been in power for less than 10 years. They're just an excuse - Israel was just as reluctant to make peace before 2006. In fact, arguably the most forthcoming Israeli PM in terms of peace - Ehud Olmert - came after the Hamas takeover of Gaza.
    Hamas have existed for quite a bit longer. And, as noted, they're only the latest, and.far from the only, incarnation of Arab terrorism targeted at Israel and global Jewry. PFLP? Fatah? PIJ?
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    (Original post by hdaindak)
    well thats a load of ****... it proves that this is the genocide of one race as opposed to any kind of fair war between them
    This is complete and utter nonsense. By the pervese logic which argues that greater body count = greater moral authority, Israel would have more moral authority if, instead of ordering civillians to take shelter during rocket attacks, she ordered them to go stand on the rooftops whenever a warning siren sounded.

    War is not a game, and it's not supposed to be fair. Israel is under no obligation to apologise for her military superiority. Indeed, it is her moral obligation to her own citizens to ensure that superiority. In fact, it is even beneficial to enemy civilians, as Israel deploys fearsomely advanced technology, which could be employed to utterly destroy the enemy population, to instead minimize, as far as possible in war, casualties among enemy civilians. In this she works against Hamas, which works to maximise Arab civillian casualtie.
 
 
 
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