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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    Indeed, a no then.

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    See the future, I cannot, nor do I have any influence to be able to say "I will try to ensure it" or otherwise

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Lucas thinks the eu brought democracy to eastern Europe. I thought it was the demos and collapse of the USSR that did that...

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    In fairness to the EU, the carrot of EU membership has encouraged governments to adopt measures that strengthen the market and western values.
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    Regarding the debate it once again told me nothing that will influence my vote but was better than some. I agree with J that Gove would have been a far superior choice to Boris but Davidson was by far the best of all of them which can only be a good thing for the Tories.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    In fairness to the EU, the carrot of EU membership has encouraged governments to adopt measures that strengthen the market and western values.
    Not what she said though, and she likely finds that an abomination

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    The 'here's a single time when most experts were wrong' argument is so ridiculous, especially when referring to joining the euro. First, there wasn't nearly as clear a preponderance regarding the euro as there is regarding the EU. Second, based on the information available at the time, and if that information had held true regarding the state of Greece, joining the euro could've been a good decision (as it happens, not all the information was available). Third, experts will be wrong from time to time; that doesn't mean that one should ignore them, since they're going to be right far more often than the underlying distribution.

    Leave are simply resorting to silly obfuscating tactics now. They're trying to hide the fact that they have absolutely no case on economics, absolutely no case on democracy, and only extremely weak cases on sovereignty and immigration. They cannot present any coherent models of what might happen in a post-Brexit scenario, and resort to referring to 'Project Fear' to hide the fact that it is camp Leave who is trying to deceive people.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Is that in comparison to the general election?



    I'd certainly avoid basing my vote from movements in the stock markets (i'd not be shocked if trading is suspended before lunch) simply because of the panic but your right that for those of us who are not obsessed with immigration it comes down to whether you think the potential for higher long run growth and employment is worth a few bad years.

    What's your motivation for leave?
    I'm for open globalism not narrow regionalism.

    I loathe the fact that EU law is supreme over UK law. Our elected govt cannot pass anything in conflict with law that has been made by an unelected body that our MEPs may have voted against in the EP. The EU is unbelievably undemocratic, we cannot have the most powerful MEN in Europe exercise huge amounts of power over us with no mandate from us.

    Further integration is inevitable. It's a question of when, not if. The only way we can gurantee not being part of a federal Europe, is to be out of the EU.

    The EU does not effectively protect human rights. We can overrule ECHR decisions, the most notable example being prisoner votes. Although I'm in agreement that prisoners shouldn't have votes, the principle that we can overrule something that should be protected is wrong. The only way to protect human rights in the UK is entrenchment of a bill of rights.

    There's of course immigration. It's ridiculous that we cannot control numbers. But the bigger issue here is that EU migrants have a higher status than non-EU migrants. Any migrant coming to the UK should be subject to the same process.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Regarding the debate it once again told me nothing that will influence my vote but was better than some. I agree with J that Gove would have been a far superior choice to Boris but Davidson was by far the best of all of them which can only be a good thing for the Tories.
    Ruth Davidson is possibly the only person in the world who could get me to vote Tory and that both terrifies me and impresses me.

    She'd take huge numbers of labour voters who aren't even swing voters.

    If you lot don't make her leader and instead choose a divisive figure like Gove or Johnson you're mad.
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    (Original post by jamestg)
    I'm for open globalism not narrow regionalism.

    I loathe the fact that EU law is supreme over UK law. Our elected govt cannot pass anything in conflict with law that has been made by an unelected body that our MEPs may have voted against in the EP. The EU is unbelievably undemocratic, we cannot have the most powerful MEN in Europe exercise huge amounts of power over us with no mandate from us.
    you do know that all EU presidents are either elected, speakers or are in a role that we ourselves don't elect?

    Further integration is inevitable. It's a question of when, not if. The only way we can gurantee not being part of a federal Europe, is to be out of the EU.

    The EU does not effectively protect human rights. We can overrule ECHR decisions, the most notable example being prisoner votes. Although I'm in agreement that prisoners shouldn't have votes, the principle that we can overrule something that should be protected is wrong. The only way to protect human rights in the UK is entrenchment of a bill of rights.

    There's of course immigration. It's ridiculous that we cannot control numbers. But the bigger issue here is that EU migrants have a higher status than non-EU migrants. Any migrant coming to the UK should be subject to the same process.
    a UK bill of rights could be overruled by parliment so wouldn't be protection...

    any migrant coming to Scotland should be treated the same as a non-UK migrant!!!
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    (Original post by Aph)
    you do know that all EU presidents are either elected, speakers or are in a role that we ourselves don't elect?


    a UK bill of rights could be overruled by parliment so wouldn't be protection...

    any migrant coming to Scotland should be treated the same as a non-UK migrant!!!
    But the point is we (the people) do not elect them.

    The whole point of having an ENTRENCHED bill of rights is that it would be very hard to overrule - 2/3rds in both chambers would be the best way to entrench it.

    Scotland will never be independent!!!
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    (Original post by jamestg)
    But the point is we (the people) do not elect them.

    The whole point of having an ENTRENCHED bill of rights is that it would be very hard to overrule - 2/3rds in both chambers would be the best way to entrench it.

    Scotland will never be independent!!!
    The President of the commission is as directly elected as David Cameron.
    The Council and Parliment presidents are just speakers (The Parliment president is also an MEP)
    The president of the ECB is unelected just as much as president of the BoE... should we be election to politicize monetary policy?

    There is no constitutional basis for that to exist in the UK

    My point still stands...
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    (Original post by jamestg)
    But the point is we (the people) do not elect them.

    The whole point of having an ENTRENCHED bill of rights is that it would be very hard to overrule - 2/3rds in both chambers would be the best way to entrench it.

    Scotland will never be independent!!!
    Very tricky to entrench anything in our system due to the principle of parliamentary sovereignty.
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    the 2015 EU presidential debates

    EDIT: love the voice they got to translate for Junker :lol:
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    (Original post by jamestg)
    I'm for open globalism not narrow regionalism.

    I loathe the fact that EU law is supreme over UK law. Our elected govt cannot pass anything in conflict with law that has been made by an unelected body that our MEPs may have voted against in the EP. The EU is unbelievably undemocratic, we cannot have the most powerful MEN in Europe exercise huge amounts of power over us with no mandate from us.

    Further integration is inevitable. It's a question of when, not if. The only way we can gurantee not being part of a federal Europe, is to be out of the EU.

    The EU does not effectively protect human rights. We can overrule ECHR decisions, the most notable example being prisoner votes. Although I'm in agreement that prisoners shouldn't have votes, the principle that we can overrule something that should be protected is wrong. The only way to protect human rights in the UK is entrenchment of a bill of rights.

    There's of course immigration. It's ridiculous that we cannot control numbers. But the bigger issue here is that EU migrants have a higher status than non-EU migrants. Any migrant coming to the UK should be subject to the same process.
    I'd just like to mention that the ECHR is a completely separate organisation to the EU. If we leave the EU we don't leave the jurisdiction of the ECHR. It's an excruciatingly common mistake.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    The President of the commission is as directly elected as David Cameron.
    The Council and Parliment presidents are just speakers (The Parliment president is also an MEP)
    The president of the ECB is unelected just as much as president of the BoE... should we be election to politicize monetary policy?

    There is no constitutional basis for that to exist in the UK

    My point still stands...
    DC gains his authority from other means, most importantly popular and parliamentary support. How does the President of the Commission gain popular support from the British people if no one has any idea who they are?

    There is no constitutional basis as of yet.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    I'd just like to mention that the ECHR is a completely separate organisation to the EU. If we leave the EU we don't leave the jurisdiction of the ECHR. It's an excruciatingly common mistake.
    I know the ECHR (court) is tied to the ECHR (act) which is then tied to the HRA. But is not part of the EU.

    Leaving the EU, I'm sure we'd abolish the HRA and have our own bill of rights.
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    (Original post by jamestg)
    DC gains his authority from other means, most importantly popular and parliamentary support. How does the President of the Commission gain popular support from the British people if no one has any idea who they are?

    There is no constitutional basis as of yet.
    they have the support of the EUropean People!!! again, DC doesn't have the support of the scots...
    Junker was the presidential candidate of the largest EU party. and people not knowing simply makes them bad citizens.
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    (Original post by jamestg)
    I know the ECHR (court) is tied to the ECHR (act) which is then tied to the HRA. But is not part of the EU.

    Leaving the EU, I'm sure we'd abolish the HRA and have our own bill of rights.
    Nop. HRA has nothing to do with EU. Also a British Bill of rights could only take the form of an act if Parliament, which like all others would be repealable.

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    (Original post by jamestg)
    I know the ECHR (court) is tied to the ECHR (act) which is then tied to the HRA. But is not part of the EU.

    Leaving the EU, I'm sure we'd abolish the HRA and have our own bill of rights.
    Then this:

    "The EU does not effectively protect human rights. We can overrule ECHR decisions, the most notable example being prisoner votes."

    Was quite irrelevant.


    And why on earth do you think we'd do that? As I said, it's wholly unrelated to the EU. It doesn't matter whether we stay or not.

    Britain is one of the key founders of the EConventionHR with our lawyers guiding its creation. I see no reason to abandon one of the many gifts this nation has given the world.
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    must say, watching the 2014 presidential debates I love Ska Keller. shame the greens didn't win the parliment...
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    Major seems to think that without Britain the EU wouldn't have imposed sanctions on Russia...

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