Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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iJDB
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#5921
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#5921
We work to keep London safe! The whole focus is on LONDON.
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flugelr
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#5922
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#5922
(Original post by iJDB)
This is not about bloody Alex Salmond. If we do not want him, we will not reelect him - IT'S THAT SIMPLE. We live in a democracy, he can run again if he likes. Whether he gets reelected is up to US. So that statement was invalid.
The point is that the negotiations over independence will happen before we have a chance to re-elect him. So yes, it very much is about Alex Salmond as he will be the person who largely determines what an independent Scotland will look like.

(Original post by iJDB)
Yes and the 20p for each point should be spent on underdeveloped parts of SCOTLAND but instead it gets spent on keeping London.
As an Aberdonian, I fail to see why money generated in Aberdeenshire is better spent in Glasgow than in London. Either way Aberdeen looses money.

You originally argued that Scotland puts more money in than it gets out. If we become independent that situation will not change. The same areas of Scotland which currently generate the most money (Edinburgh, Aberdeen etc) will still loose out.

(Original post by iJDB)
I understand how MPs are elected - the majority of scottish constituencies vote Labour in terms of general elections - therefore it can be generalised to the whole of scotland.
No, it cannot because that would assume Scotland is a hegemonic state, when it really isn't. You just need to look at a map of the election results to see that Labour voters are concentrated into a relatively small part of Scotland:


(Original post by iJDB)
Salmond can do whatever he likes, we voted him in.
More people voted against him than for him. Therefore, by your own logic, he shouldn't be FM?

(Original post by iJDB)
He is left wing
Really? He is the only left winger I know who wants to cut tax rates for big business.
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Quady
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#5923
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#5923
(Original post by iJDB)
We work to keep London safe! The whole focus is on LONDON.
Ignored my point? Wise move.
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MatureStudent36
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#5924
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#5924
(Original post by Teaddict)
Update on the polls:

Sunday Times: Panelbase Scottish Poll
Yes: 37% (down 1%)
NO: 49% (up 2%)
Any comments from our friends in the yes camp as to why its gone down again?
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MatureStudent36
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#5925
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#5925
(Original post by iJDB)
We work to keep London safe! The whole focus is on LONDON.
How is it to keep London safe?

I keep hearing this, but how is this the case? What is being done to keep London safe?
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iJDB
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#5926
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#5926
Scotland is a left wing country. There's no way around it. Considering salmond is SNP then yes he is fairly left wing. I'd say that abolishing bedroom tax etc are moves of a left winger. Don't sit and complain about Salmond when overall scotland elected him. At least he reflects the seats given to him by the scots rather than Cameron who has an undeserved power over scotland. Scotland's divide is between SNP and Labour, both left wing. The Tories have no place here, really.
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iJDB
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#5927
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#5927
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
How is it to keep London safe?

I keep hearing this, but how is this the case? What is being done to keep London safe?
We supply the whole of LONDON with water. We work efficiently to build up London's economy and keep it economically excelling. Can't accept that? Look at the figures
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iJDB
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#5928
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#5928
(Original post by flugelr)
The point is that the negotiations over independence will happen before we have a chance to re-elect him. So yes, it very much is about Alex Salmond as he will be the person who largely determines what an independent Scotland will look like.


As an Aberdonian, I fail to see why money generated in Aberdeenshire is better spent in Glasgow than in London. Either way Aberdeen looses money.

Loses* and as a fellow aberdonian, London is closer to Paris than it is my country. Scotland has problems and we should not be losing this amount of money to keep ENGLAND comfortable, it should be to better help those suffering in scotland.

You originally argued that Scotland puts more money in than it gets out. If we become independent that situation will not change. The same areas of Scotland which currently generate the most money (Edinburgh, Aberdeen etc) will still loose out.

Lose* we put more money into England and do not receive it back in aid of our own country. I'm fine with putting out more money than receiving back, as long as that money is not wasted due to the economic mess of Westminster after focussing too much on England - which it has been.

No, it cannot because that would assume Scotland is a hegemonic state, when it really isn't. You just need to look at a map of the election results to see that Labour voters are concentrated into a relatively small part of Scotland:


It's largely left wing. Therefore we need a left wing government. SNP provide us with this

More people voted against him than for him. Therefore, by your own logic, he shouldn't be FM?

SNP are left wing - we asked for left wing. I amen't complaining greatly.

Really? He is the only left winger I know who wants to cut tax rates for big business.
and rid scotland of this bedroom tax - he plans on introducing a lot of left wing reforms
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Good bloke
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#5929
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#5929
(Original post by iJDB)
We supply the whole of LONDON with water.
Eh? Is this a joke? London's water supply famously comes from its artesian wells, and reservoirs in the south-east of England connected to the Thames and Lea. There is no connection between Scotland and England that can deliver water.
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MatureStudent36
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#5930
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#5930
(Original post by iJDB)
We supply the whole of LONDON with water. We work efficiently to build up London's economy and keep it economically excelling. Can't accept that? Look at the figures
We supply no water to London. London gets it's water from the thames.

You've fallen into the fantasy that the SNP peddled about selling water to London during the drought.

Too expensive to set up a water pipeline from Scotland to London. Cheapest option, and what is being done already is bore holes, aquifers and reservoirs. I.e more of them are needed.

Which anti London myth do you want me to dispel for you next and enlighten you?
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flugelr
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#5931
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#5931
(Original post by iJDB)
Loses* and as a fellow aberdonian, London is closer to Paris than it is my country. Scotland has problems and we should not be losing this amount of money to keep ENGLAND comfortable, it should be to better help those suffering in scotland.
Aberdeen has some pretty grim areas. Why should we subsidise the rest of Scotland rather than concentrating the money on Torry or Tillydrone?

(Original post by iJDB)
Lose* we put more money into England and do not receive it back in aid of our own country. I'm fine with putting out more money than receiving back, as long as that money is not wasted due to the economic mess of Westminster after focussing too much on England - which it has been.
Again, the same situation would occur in an independent Scotland. Some parts of Scotland would loose money as the Scottish Government will be focussed on the Central Belt - where all the votes are. Why do you think Aberdeen City Council have annouced their intention to leave COSLA?

(Original post by iJDB)
It's largely left wing. Therefore we need a left wing government. SNP provide us with this
I disagree. Look at the voting records of anywhere north of Dundee. Almost all of them are historically Tory and Liberal areas. In areas like Banff & Buchan and Angus the SNP's vote has been steadily decreasing and the Tories steadily increasing while in much of the Highlands the Lib Dems reign supreme.

The Central Belt is heavily left wing, but the Central Belt =/= Scotland.
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Quady
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#5932
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#5932
(Original post by iJDB)
and rid scotland of this bedroom tax - he plans on introducing a lot of left wing reforms
He has already got rid of it hasn't it?

Is he? Interesting, didn't see any of them mentioned in the White Paper...

Edit
lol on your water comment, Scotland doesn't have enough water to keep its distilleries open all year round. Have you seen the news? Theres quite a bit of water down there...
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Quady
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#5933
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(Original post by iJDB)
Scotland is a left wing country. There's no way around it. Considering salmond is SNP then yes he is fairly left wing. I'd say that abolishing bedroom tax etc are moves of a left winger. Don't sit and complain about Salmond when overall scotland elected him. At least he reflects the seats given to him by the scots rather than Cameron who has an undeserved power over scotland. Scotland's divide is between SNP and Labour, both left wing. The Tories have no place here, really.
For every 3 SNP votes, there is 1 Tory vote. Hardly 'no place'.
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Cryptographic
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#5934
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#5934
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Misrepresentation here. Yes and No gap is closing with swing towards Yes, and No votes falling.
The Yes voters disregard all polls that are trending NO.

The No voters sometimes disregard the polls that are trending YES.
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Midlander
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#5935
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#5935
(Original post by King Kebab)
Do you have evidence that it is about Scottish people versus English people?
I could spend many hours trawling through this thread alone to give you examples but I will leave that to you.

The most glaring examples are when Yes voters, and indeed No voters, talk about England in place of RUK. They talk about voting tendencies in England, cultural differences with England, Westminster only caring about England and many more. Not once are any stereotypes about Wales and Northern Ireland put forward and not once have those nations been explicitly criticised.

You are being blind ignorant to say that the referendum has nothing to do with anti English sentiment.


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Midlander
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#5936
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#5936
(Original post by iJDB)
and rid scotland of this bedroom tax - he plans on introducing a lot of left wing reforms
King Kebab, take this cretin's post as a nice piece of evidence.


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VladThe1mpaler
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#5937
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#5937
(Original post by Midlander)
I could spend many hours trawling through this thread alone to give you examples but I will leave that to you.

The most glaring examples are when Yes voters, and indeed No voters, talk about England in place of RUK. They talk about voting tendencies in England, cultural differences with England, Westminster only caring about England and many more. Not once are any stereotypes about Wales and Northern Ireland put forward and not once have those nations been explicitly criticised.

You are being blind ignorant to say that the referendum has nothing to do with anti English sentiment.


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Why would we Yes voters talk about northern ireland or wales when they don't control us? This isn't some personal thing where we all just dislike RUK (or as you believe, england) this is a political thing where we no longer want to be controlled by Westminster and want to have our own government.
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MatureStudent36
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#5938
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#5938
(Original post by VladThe1mpaler)
Why would we Yes voters talk about northern ireland or wales when they don't control us? This isn't some personal thing where we all just dislike RUK (or as you believe, england) this is a political thing where we no longer want to be controlled by Westminster and want to have our own government.
England doesn't control us.
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Midlander
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#5939
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#5939
(Original post by VladThe1mpaler)
Why would we Yes voters talk about northern ireland or wales when they don't control us? This isn't some personal thing where we all just dislike RUK (or as you believe, england) this is a political thing where we no longer want to be controlled by Westminster and want to have our own government.
You aren't controlled by England. Moreover the complaints about cultural differences look farcical when you consider that Wales is run by Labour, Northern Ireland elect none of the British parties, and England has plumped for Labour 3 times in the past 4 elections. Why would a Yes voter talk about these countries? Because they are part of the UK as well and would show that their campaign does not seek to exploit national stereotypes of English people to win votes.

You have your own government-not one I voted for here in Fife and not one that over half of Scots voted for but we still have one nonetheless. The Scottish Tories are now Scotland's third biggest party-think of that before whining about how 'nobody votes Tory in Scotland'.


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eddtheduck
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#5940
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#5940
Is self determinism by a peoples a good thing?
or should their determinism be dictated by another?
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