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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV Watch

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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Strange how governments around the world disagree with the latte-sipping apologists for Muslim terror and send delegations to Israel.

    I think I'll believe highly decorated generals and heads of security over no-mark leftist journalists and smelly students with kaffiah around their scrawny necks.
    If you expect to get a reasonable and unbiased response from the USA on Israel then you're going to be sorely disappointed.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    If you expect to get a reasonable and unbiased response from the USA on Israel then you're going to be sorely disappointed.
    Yeah, we'll listen to the Eurotrash who only 70 years ago were trying to wipe out the same race they're now harassing again. :rolleyes:

    Trying to cut up a tiny little country in order to create a 23rd Arab country and a 57th Muslim one.

    One tiny Jewish nation the size of Wales, and this is too much of an affront for the despicable Eurotrash. Must keep harassing the Jews, must keep pushing them into indefensible borders. Closer and closer to the sea.

    The EU is a fascist, genocidal entity.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Yeah, we'll listen to the Eurotrash who only 70 years ago were trying to wipe out the same race they're now harassing again. :rolleyes:

    Trying to cut up a tiny little country in order to create a 23rd Arab country and a 57th Muslim one.

    One tiny Jewish nation the size of Wales, and this is too much of an affront for the despicable Eurotrash. Must keep harassing the Jews, must keep pushing them into indefensible borders. Closer and closer to the sea.

    The EU is a fascist, genocidal entity.
    I think a foreign group establishing a nation state on your house, on your town, on your city and pushing you back out of your homeland where your descendants have lived for hundreds upon hundreds of years, into a thin, indefensible slither of land smaller than the isle of white is abhorrent and indefensible. If this makes me 'white trash' then I'm fine with that.

    Israel is a fascist and genocidal state.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    We see today that a third rocket was fired at Israel from Gaza since the end of hostilities. Naturally the pro-'palestinian' BBC haven't reported any of these rocket attacks.




    There have been several despicable terrorist attacks in Jerusalem claimed by Hamas who think they can play a game of ceasefire in Gaza whilst killing Israelis with attacks originating in the so-called 'West Bank' (real name Judea & Samaria).

    We see this tactic over and over again. The declaration of a ceasefire from Gaza, then a period of quiet followed by the drip drip effect of rockets starting up again. Calculated such that it's not enough to elicit a military response, but enough to keep the population of Israel in fear of rocket attacks.

    Of course as soon as Israel does fire back into Gaza or takes action against Hamas' terrorism, the BBC will be on it like flies on ****.
    You really turn a blind eye to all the recent developments and the overall state of the situation. Why have these attacks happened? It couldn't be due to the ongoing illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories, could it? Or the closure and restrictions imposed on the Al Aqsa mosque. Or the continuous illegal expansion of Israeli settlements...

    You want to make it seem as Palestinians attack for no reason, while in reality they are just responding to the constant attacks by Israel, be it physical or psychological ones.
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    (Original post by Catholic_)
    I just find it bizzare that Israel wants a Jewish homeland and many Liberal minded people support them. Something that would be considered 'BNP esque' if Brits demanded their homogenity back.

    I see Israel as a Jewish land. Although, I don't support them killing Palestinians. Zionism is Nazism.
    The left hates Israel.


    It's funny, I can always tell the far right neo-Nazi types, they hate Muslims, but they hate the Jews a little bit more...
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    (Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish)
    This is not a no true Scotsman. I am not moving any goalposts to maintain a disproven assertion. Rather, I am suggesting that you, personally, have a poor understanding of Israeli society, and going on to explain why your statements suggest that conclusion, by providing an explanation of the particular aspects of Israeli society which you appear not to understand.
    You're attempting to set the parameters of the debate so as to put me in a no-win position, i.e. if I disagree with you, I must not really understand the topic.


    You assume from the beginning something wholly false, namely that the PLO, now the PA, is somehow the default sovereign authority for Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, and even has claims to the rest of the land of Israel. In reality, the whole of the PA's administrative power over anything at all, and indeed it's very existence as an Authority, rather than an underground terrorist group, is an Israeli concession. Nor did Israel ever enter into any agreement with the PA that she would not continue to develop Israeli communities in the territories she did not hand over to PA control. This idea that there is any legal or moral imperative that the territories in Judea and Samaria which were not granted to the PA at Oslo should end up in their control, or that they somehow 'default' to the control of the PA, which has never had any control over them and certainly has no greater claim than Israel by any number of different metrics, is one of the most pernicious myths of this whole situation.
    The PLO did claim all of what is now Israel, as well as the OPT, until 1993, when it reduced its claims to the latter.

    You're conflating issues of power, legality, and legitimacy. I'm not going to go into legitimacy (justifications or claims based on something other than international law) for the moment. While the PA's administrative control, both over its current areas and any future Palestinian state, is/would be an Israeli 'concession' in terms of power, that's rather different to a question of legality.

    The PLO was recognised as the legal representative of the Palestinian people as early as 1974. Since 2012, the UN has recognised the State of Palestine as non-member state. True, there's no explicit legal document stating which territories are legally Palestine, but there's quite a bit of implicit moving towards it.

    It's also worth noting that there is a precedent for this - the case of Namibia, where SWAPO was recognised as the legal representative, and the actual controllers of the territory, South Africa, as illegal occupiers. If anything, the PA have more grounds than SWAPO ever did - unlike the PA, SWAPO never had any administrative control over Namibia before peace was agreed in 1989, and South Africa did initially have a legal mandate to control the territory.

    And the PA most certainly does have a better claim than Israel, simply because there literally is no Israeli claim; East Jerusalem aside, Israel does not formally claim the Occupied Territories, for the obvious reason that if it did it would be effectively obliged to annex them.

    As for the settlement-building, no, there's nothing in Oslo prohibiting it, that's kind of my point; it illustrates how little Israel actually gave in the way of 'concessions'. Bear in mind this isn't even about the already-existing settlements, simply about further settlement-building.

    And as they're illegal anyway, Oslo's silence on them is moot.

    Add on to this the periodic releases of the most brutal terrorist murderers, who are celebrated as heroes by the PA
    Maybe they should do like Israel and make them Prime Minister instead (Begin, Shamir)?

    the denial, by Israel, of the Jewish right to even share their most important holy site in the whole world in order to appease both the PA and Jordan, the Israeli provision of free electricity and facilitation of aid transfer to Gaza even in the middle of a war, and you have a long list of concessions
    No, you have a list of returning things to the prior status quo, if that.

    that have not bought even enough quiet to merely make up for the damage they have caused, much less brought true peace any closer. They have not even stopped the attempts of the PA to destroy Israel. They have switched (for the most part) to a diplomatic strategy for the first stage, the establishment of an Arab state in the Territories, but they have not given up the ultimate goal.
    The PLO recognised Israel. They gave up violence and committed themselves to diplomatic methods. They even recognised the invented concept of the 'right to exist' (note that Israel has done none of these things in the other direction). What more do you want from them to prove their willingness to make peace?

    This assumes (perhaps mistakenly) some basic familiarity with Israeli politics, and refers to the groups who continue to push for concessions. All the way from the left to the centre-right, you have believers in the concession model.
    Oh, so you mean they believe in what you consider to be 'concessions'?

    This speaks not to the proven effectiveness of concessions, but rather to the great national yearning to believe that if we just give a little more, and a little more, and a little more, our enemies will somehow stop trying to utterly destroy us.
    I'll ignore the melodramatic nonsense.

    On the contrary. I explained it fully.
    There's nothing to explain. Just like "smallest large state" or "richest poor state" would be considered meaningless phrases, as is "least militaristic militarised state", because just like size and wealth, militarisation is a continuum; there is no fixed a point at which a state becomes 'militarised'.


    This is outstandingly myopic, assuming that every society in the world is the same as western Europe of the past 40 years or so, and that there are no societies that revel in their militarism and see it as an inherent virtue, as opposed to a neccessity. Are you serious?
    This in no way contradicts what I said. Sure, many if not most militaristic societies consider their militarism a virtue, but generally they still justify it by reference to some sort of threat (real or invented).


    So the first free and fair elections of this proto-state bring to power an Islamist terrorist group sworn to the violent destruction of Israel and the global destruction of the Jews, and active in pursuing this goal.
    Sworn when? Even the Hamas Charter (which Hamas leaders have several times dismissed as no longer relevant) doesn't call for "global destruction of the Jews" - in fact it contains an article saying "it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other."

    Hamas has accepted the principle of a de facto (though possibly not de jure) peace based on the 1967 lines, as long as it was ratified in a referendum by the Palestinian people. While this does have problems from a purely pragmatic point of view, there's nothing really objectionable about it.

    Hamas have existed for quite a bit longer. And, as noted, they're only the latest, and.far from the only, incarnation of Arab terrorism targeted at Israel and global Jewry. PFLP? Fatah? PIJ?
    Setting all other problems with this aside for the moment , this has nothing to do with your initial claim - that Israel can't make peace with the PLO because of Hamas.
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    Links here:

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...244546404.html

    and here:


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-30054556

    Basically, Israel banned this doctor for "security concerns"

    Thoughts?
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    What is there to think other than confirming what we know: Israel are a terrorist organisation.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    Well- Israel has a right to deny right to entry to anyone (who isn't an Israeli citizen).
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    (Original post by simon_g)
    Well- Israel has a right to deny right to entry to anyone (who isn't an Israeli citizen).
    Well seems ironic then that they force entry into places they aren't wanted doesn't it.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by IceJJFish(II))
    What is there to think other than confirming what we know: Israel are a terrorist organisation.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    ermm please do not include me in your ridiculous statements. Israel is a sovereign nation. She has to contend with unrelenting terrorist threats. If this doctor is not welcome in Israel there are plenty of other countries where he can ply his trade.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    ermm please do not include me in your ridiculous statements. Israel is a sovereign nation. She has to contend with unrelenting terrorist threats. If this doctor is not welcome in Israel there are plenty of other countries where he can ply his trade.
    THE BEAR HAS SPOKEN!

    Now on topic, what do you actually think of Israel and it's ways at the moment?
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    (Original post by ChronoPass)
    THE BEAR HAS SPOKEN!

    Now on topic, what do you actually think of Israel and it's ways at the moment?
    I would love to make my home in that beautiful country. I would join the IDF if they let me.

    :israel:
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    (Original post by the bear)
    I would love to make my home in that beautiful country. I would join the IDF if they let me.

    :israel:
    I can't blame you, they are just trying to defend themselves but it does look bad. You have to admit some of the things they have done have been iffy?
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    He was banned because he spoke.out against Israeli brutality. 'He told the BBC he had never broken any Israeli rules during his spells working in Gaza.
    But he suggested that his open reporting of the medical situation in the territory had angered the Israeli authorities'
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    And this is why Israel remains my favourite country.

    Spoiler:
    Show
    NOT


    What security threats could the doctor possibly have posed?
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    Israel has every right to defend themselves from terrorists and since this doctor was trying to help HAMAS, they have done nothing wrong
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    (Original post by IceJJFish(II))
    Well seems ironic then that they force entry into places they aren't wanted doesn't it.
    so does everyone who can. and?
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    It's Israel so what do you expect?
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    (Original post by ChronoPass)
    I can't blame you, they are just trying to defend themselves but it does look bad.
    what?

    defending themselves from the country they're trying to whipe off the face of the earth? palestine don't have a military let alone the advanced defence systems/weapons israel have been gifted rofl, why do people seem to think israelis are the victims? the jews are absolutely loving it

    (Original post by ChronoPass)
    You have to admit some of the things they have done have been iffy?
    Spoiler:
    Show
    (Original post by ChronoPass)
    You have to admit some of the things they have done have been iffy?
    rofl
 
 
 
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