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get yourselves to TRAFALGAR SQUARE for 12:00 this tuesday watch

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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    The students on this forum have, as usual, shown themselves to be pretty pathetic. Yeah, it's totally cool to jump on the cynical, protesters-are-lame bandwagon- people who have never actively been involved in a cause or a protest because they're glued to their computers and because not caring about things is sooo cool. GOOD ONE GUYS.


    David Mitchell:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ion-fees-clegg
    That is an excellent article. I agree with every point he makes...

    (And I agree with your comments too for the record)
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    The students on this forum have, as usual, shown themselves to be pretty pathetic. Yeah, it's totally cool to jump on the cynical, protesters-are-lame bandwagon- people who have never actively been involved in a cause or a protest because they're glued to their computers and because not caring about things is sooo cool. GOOD ONE GUYS.
    1) How do you know I've never been involved in a cause or protest? Prove to me that I haven't, and you know me better than I do. What makes you think I've jumped on a "cynical ... bandwagon"?

    2) Really, why should I care? I'm Scottish domiciled and studied in Scotland and, consequently, have never directly paid a bean in fees and never will - SAAS are even paying for my MSc then I leave the "cynical [academic] bandwagon" for good. My parents are almost millionaires and my student loan of £5000 has already been paid off, because I'm no longer eligible to receive it and it was just sitting there piling on the interest. Okay, somewhere along the line a random taxpayer has helped me out by contributing to Scotland's budget - I understand, appreciate and accept it.

    3) "Glued to their computers"? Yes, I'll admit to the cardinal sin of being on mine a lot because I'm doing a Masters course in a computing discipline which has a mega-****ton of practical work, whereas you seem to have appeared out of the murky depths to try and antagonise people you've never met as opposed to providing valid reasoning.

    I can afford my education, and these changes don't affect me. Remind me again why I should care? Tarring everyone with the same brush is an exercise in impetuous futility.
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    I've got lessons on the day, I don't see the point of going down to London to inevitably watch as someone or a group starts being violent. Also I'm not really that against the Proposals, in fact some of them look quite fair.

    So no, think I'll avoid what is going to ultimately result in a good day for the Media. And also I don't want to spend 12 hours locked on some street somewhere.
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    (Original post by Low Profile)
    typical Tory way of thinking. Only the priviledged have the right to higher education? Public services are not an expense! To ensure stability and a progressive society, public services are essential. The common good of society is established from the greatest asset this nation has to offer; education. If you hinder the prospects of the common person to education then you defeat the purpose of a sustainable way of living.
    I want to approach this post from a number of angles. Firstly, you have made a stawman of my argument and done it badly. I told you you had no meaningful conception of the word "right" and, sure enough, you have again used the word in the above postnwithout defining it. What do you mean by a right? Answering that would directly tackle the main point I put to you. Further you are accusing me of saying only the rich have a right to something, without being aware of what I believe a right to be.

    What is a public service? You say they are essential, but how do you define the term? Is It merely anything provided by the state? Only once you have this can we discuss the importance of public services in society. Secondly, at no point did I say whether a public service was an expense or not - I pointed out quite correctly that the consumer of the public services uses that service at the expense of others. As an aside, public services are an expense - they use up scarce resources and therefore have a cost incurred in their production. Consider the absurdity of the logical conclusion to your argument: that the state should tax every citizen at 100% per cent to provide the best public services. After all, they are priceless.

    A couple of final points, briefly. The term common good is meaningless. There is no such thing: there is only good for each individual. The collective has no being in and if itself. The point you make on sustainable living - would you care to expand?
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Right, so the same should go for healthcare, yeah? Primary and secondary education? The police?
    I believe that those services could be provided far more morally and efficiently on the free market (which is simply short-hand for every individual acting in voluntary exchange deriving mutual benefit). Although this is obviously a large topic, I think that the incentives faced by the state and the fact it can not truly engage in rational economic calculation are two of the primary reasons for this.
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    (Original post by Bax-man)
    I want to approach this post from a number of angles. Firstly, you have made a stawman of my argument and done it badly. I told you you had no meaningful conception of the word "right" and, sure enough, you have again used the word in the above postnwithout defining it. What do you mean by a right? Answering that would directly tackle the main point I put to you. Further you are accusing me of saying only the rich have a right to something, without being aware of what I believe a right to be.

    What is a public service? You say they are essential, but how do you define the term? Is It merely anything provided by the state? Only once you have this can we discuss the importance of public services in society. Secondly, at no point did I say whether a public service was an expense or not - I pointed out quite correctly that the consumer of the public services uses that service at the expense of others. As an aside, public services are an expense - they use up scarce resources and therefore have a cost incurred in their production. Consider the absurdity of the logical conclusion to your argument: that the state should tax every citizen at 100% per cent to provide the best public services. After all, they are priceless.

    A couple of final points, briefly. The term common good is meaningless. There is no such thing: there is only good for each individual. The collective has no being in and if itself. The point you make on sustainable living - would you care to expand?

    Unfortunately as you cannot tackle my points as you do not have a dictionary, which is not very reassuring. My definition of right is a basis of fairness, equality for a collective good. Public service is a service which maintains social upkeep and stablilises the general custom of society. I cannot see you're logic in implying public services should regress and reduced. I won't expand on any more of my points because I fail to see what good it would do with you who just seems willing to play a game of semantics.
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    (Original post by Low Profile)
    Desperate times, desparate measures...
    It's alright for the students who have ponies in their gardens but this is the real world and it's our duty to see to our rights.
    It won't affect those of us who've finished uni either :cool:
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    (Original post by Low Profile)
    Unfortunately as you cannot tackle my points as you do not have a dictionary is not very reassuring. My definition of right is a basis of fairness, equality for a collective good. Public service is a service which maintains social upkeep and stablilises the general custom of society. I cannot see you're logic in implying public services should regress and reduced. I won't expand on any more of my points because I fail to see what good it would do with you who just seems willing to play a game of semantics.
    Your clearly a civil servant arent you lol. I dont see your way of thinking. If we want to get out fo debt then we have to cut public sector jobs because theirs to many of them an they all get rediculous pensions. I'm glad 400,000 are going to lose there job because they've had it good for years.
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    (Original post by ch0llima)
    1) How do you know I've never been involved in a cause or protest? Prove to me that I haven't, and you know me better than I do. What makes you think I've jumped on a "cynical ... bandwagon"?

    2) Really, why should I care? I'm Scottish domiciled and studied in Scotland and, consequently, have never directly paid a bean in fees and never will - SAAS are even paying for my MSc then I leave the "cynical [academic] bandwagon" for good. My parents are almost millionaires and my student loan of £5000 has already been paid off, because I'm no longer eligible to receive it and it was just sitting there piling on the interest. Okay, somewhere along the line a random taxpayer has helped me out by contributing to Scotland's budget - I understand, appreciate and accept it.

    3) "Glued to their computers"? Yes, I'll admit to the cardinal sin of being on mine a lot because I'm doing a Masters course in a computing discipline which has a mega-****ton of practical work, whereas you seem to have appeared out of the murky depths to try and antagonise people you've never met as opposed to providing valid reasoning.

    I can afford my education, and these changes don't affect me. Remind me again why I should care? Tarring everyone with the same brush is an exercise in impetuous futility.
    Gosh, are you really that egotistical that you'll take a general post I make about students and assume that I was talking specifically about you, ch0llima? It was so obviously a generalised post, do you really think that I actually believe this applies to every student on this forum who disagrees with the protests?

    How do you know I've never been involved in a cause or protest? Prove to me that I haven't, and you know me better than I do. What makes you think I've jumped on a "cynical ... bandwagon"?
    Are you frickin serious? Do you really think I CARE?
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    (Original post by Bax-man)
    I believe that those services could be provided far more morally and efficiently on the free market (which is simply short-hand for every individual acting in voluntary exchange deriving mutual benefit). Although this is obviously a large topic, I think that the incentives faced by the state and the fact it can not truly engage in rational economic calculation are two of the primary reasons for this.

    LOL
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    (Original post by Duncan Idaho)
    sitting back and doing nothing will certainly have no effect
    There's a word for desperately flailing about, doing nothing constructive out of a misplaced sense that any action is better than admitting defeat: pathetic.
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    (Original post by Low Profile)
    typical Tory way of thinking. Only the priviledged have the right to higher education?
    No-one has a "right" to receive a service from another. That sort of right could only be brought about through slavery.

    Public services are not an expense! To ensure stability and a progressive society, public services are essential.
    To ensure that I don't get hungry, food is essential. All the same, my grocery bill is still an expense.

    If you hinder the prospects of the common person to education then you defeat the purpose of a sustainable way of living.
    That's the most convoluted tripe I've read all week.
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    Awww, diddums - Are all the students studying media and law who are going for careers in travelling around Asia smoking weed before coming back to the UK to work in a resturant feeling victimised?

    Facts are only the best and brightest should go to university - if you read the proposals you will see that its actually even better for poorer but intelligent students now than it was.

    Just because 85% of the people going to uni shouldn't be going in the first place and now that the prospect of a 4 year piss up for every 18 year old is gone they are doing what children do and chucking their toys out of the pram.
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    I actually have better things to do that today... like go to my classes - because unlike some, I dont want to risk failing my course.
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    (Original post by tbm)
    I actually have better things to do that today... like go to my classes - because unlike some, I dont want to risk failing my course.

    If you're in the position where missing one afternoon of classes means you might fail then you're right, you should be worrying about that instead.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    If you're in the position where missing one afternoon of classes means you might fail then you're right, you should be worrying about that instead.
    Actually Im not in that position at all, but on my course attendance is taken in EVERY class and non attendance results in funding being withdrawn. Im surprised people going to all these protests are able to miss so many classes.
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    If you'd said please i'd have considered it
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    (Original post by Low Profile)
    Unfortunately as you cannot tackle my points as you do not have a dictionary is not very reassuring. My definition of right is a basis of fairness, equality for a collective good. Public service is a service which maintains social upkeep and stablilises the general custom of society. I cannot see you're logic in implying public services should regress and reduced. I won't expand on any more of my points because I fail to see what good it would do with you who just seems willing to play a game of semantics.
    Clearly we have different definitions of rights, if you believe education to be one and I do not. As L i b has pointed out, no one has a "right" to receive a service from another - that's slavery.

    My logic is not that these "public services" should be reduced, only that those who use them should shoulder the costs of their decision to do so. In other words, they should be provided entirely voluntarily, without coercion. It's worth pointing out that in order to provide these public services you must tax away the incomes of the citizens of a given country - you hardly make them any better off. Indeed, the reverse is true, because you destroy incentives and limit production.

    The reason I ask you for definitional clarification is so we can both be sure we are discussing the same thing. If you and I have entirely different definitions of what constitutes a "right" or "public service", we can hardly then have a discussion of the concepts those phrases actually represent.

    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    LOL
    Should I take this as a sign you do not wish to enter into debate on the issue?
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    (Original post by The_Great_One)
    Your clearly a civil servant arent you lol. I dont see your way of thinking. If we want to get out fo debt then we have to cut public sector jobs because theirs to many of them an they all get rediculous pensions. I'm glad 400,000 are going to lose there job because they've had it good for years.
    Hardly, have you actually worked in the public sector? Ive worked in both, and I can tell you that I had it WAY easier in the private sector - better paid, more flexibility, less pressure.
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    Isn't it going to snow tonight? Those who get there might be able to throw snowballs.

    That would be cool. Let's hope a few thousand turn up and build a huge snowman of protest.
 
 
 
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