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UK schools 'fall behind Estonia and Slovenia', says OECD Watch

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    (Original post by Barden)
    TBF, the 11+ exam is basically an IQ test - no amount of tutoring will help you pass it (you have to get high marks across the board, so even if one is tutored for the maths paper, one still needs to be able to pass verbal and non-verbal reasoning to a high standard)

    In fact it is beneficial to have been at a state primary before hand:

    I was at a private school, and had to do extra maths classes after-school for about 3 months because our curriculum was different (being geared towards the 13+ common entrance 'n' all).


    I'm a pretty die-hard Labourite, but even I am a Grammar School fan-boy.
    I don't agree with this. My sister did it and the more she did, the better she got at them. Also the non-verbal reasoning (the school does n ot do verbal) is pretty much the same every year, so if you practise you can get better and it does not really have to be anything about IQ. Even though, obviously, if a person is naturally smart they will find it easier to get a high mark.
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    Stats shows that Chinese people do the best so they should get a school for them only.
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    (Original post by Teaddict)
    UK schoolchildren today plummeted down a major international league table after being outscored by pupils from countries including Estonia, Lichtenstein and Slovenia.

    Teenagers slumped in worldwide rankings comparing standards of reading, mathematics and science in 65 developed nations.

    Figures published by the respected Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development showed the UK fell from 17th to 25th for reading and from 24th to 28th for maths.

    In science, pupils dropped from 14th when results were last published in 2007 to 16th this year.

    The results will cast a major shadow over Labour’s education record and spark claims that a £30 billion rise in spending under the last Government failed to produce decent results.

    Andreas Schleicher, from the OECD’s education directorate, said overall scores achieved by UK pupils were “stagnant at best, whereas many other countries have seen quite significant improvements”.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...says-OECD.html


    :mad:


    Nice bit of statistics about Labour's time in power... education has become more ****. Good to know.


    The coalition needs to come up with some bloody good education reforms to reverse this trend. Perhaps allowing more grammar schools?
    It's NOTHING to do with grammar schools, that will disadvantage more people than it helps. The syllabus needs to become more difficult, teachers need to actually understand it, and kids' attitudes should be changed. It's not a simple of matter o "oh let's get uniforms, house systems and better whiteboards".
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    (Original post by Caspa)
    or maybe other countires have got better and we havn't moved, i do find it rich of toires moaning and going look look they are bad, when their actions now are only going to make it worst, the way they want to change teacher training is crazy and we will have even smaller number of teachers
    There is some amount of irony to you posting the poorly constructed rubbish you call language in a thread discussing the declining standards of our education system.


    (Original post by Caspa)
    we have all come through a education system under labour, do you feel hard done by, do you feel like you are undereducated, before we all jump on this, education in this country is still pretty good
    In my school there was colossal waste. We didn't have the money for teaching assistants apparently, but the school bought hundreds of laptops, then replaced them every two years or so. Also, in the time I've been at university, I have yet to think "huh, this lecture would be much better if the university spent £4000 per room on installing interactive whiteboards everywhere".

    (Original post by Caspa)
    also the money labour put in was needed, do we want to go back to them under funded tory days
    You mean, back when we ranked much further up the international league tables for education? Yes, that was obviously a much worse system, costing far less and delivering better results like that, how dare they!


    (Original post by Caspa)
    the issue is the gap between rich and poor, the gaps between races, and between girls and boys
    How?


    (Original post by Caspa)
    how about being big boys and girls for once and not blaming the other party, and get off theirs ass and do something about it
    They are doing something about it, but they've only been in power for seven months. We're due to see some fairly significant changes over the next few years.

    (Original post by Caspa)
    its a tory government so it will only be made worst
    You mean "made worse"?
    Also, look up "winter of discontent"

    Yeah, exactly.

    (Original post by SoaringStar)
    Building more grammar schools won't do much since it will mainly be families who can afford to send their children to private tutoring for admissions tests - would be better if they were tested on information that everybody can revise and practise rather than only the wealthier families.
    I see where you're coming from with this, but isn't that essentially true at all levels in education?
    Money always helps, that's true of pretty much anything in life, but the grammar school system at least gives poorer kids the chance to move up the ladder.
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    I think its quite bad in all english speaking countries. I went to school in America,and by god it was pretty bad. Even the teachers couldnt name the scandanavian countries. But we really need to improove this...
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    Meh a friend from Macedonia was asking me about F=ma, forces etc and all that physics you learn here at like 15, 16 (at least if you do Edexcel anyway). He was 12 and told me it was the kind of stuff you had to learn in Macedonia at that age.
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    I'm from Slovenia, but let me tell you that schools here are crazily competitive, children learn 3 foreign languages on a very high level by the time they get to uni, most kids go to grammar schools, etc...
    And yes, we studied forces at physics at 13.
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    (Original post by Kingofhearts92)
    I think its quite bad in all english speaking countries. I went to school in America,and by god it was pretty bad. Even the teachers couldnt name the scandanavian countries. But we really need to improove this...
    Yeah, Scandinavia.. Unknown to most!
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    What do you expect when one of the aims of a maths or physics lesson becomes to better understand our multicultural society and combat racism.
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    (Original post by Time Tourist)
    What do you expect when one of the aims of a maths or physics lesson becomes to better understand our multicultural society and combat racism.

    It's not quite that bad, but from what I've seen of the GCSE physics curriculum it appears to focus on teaching kids about physics rather than teaching kids physics - there is a big difference.

    A few years old, but interesting nonetheless:
    http://www.civitas.org.uk/blog/2007/...s_for_his.html
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    (Original post by ChemistBoy)
    It's not quite that bad, but from what I've seen of the GCSE physics curriculum it appears to focus on teaching kids about physics rather than teaching kids physics - there is a big difference.

    A few years old, but interesting nonetheless:
    http://www.civitas.org.uk/blog/2007/...s_for_his.html
    You're not wrong. But it's certainly been publicised (if not in the mainstream media) that some LEA's are keen to use all aspects of schools to put forward the multicultural and anti-racist message (even in maths and physics lessons), many would say that there is a big problem when that even becomes an objective of a maths lesson for example.

    See around 6:30 :

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      (Original post by Teaddict)
      The coalition needs to come up with some bloody good education reforms to reverse this trend. Perhaps allowing more grammar schools?
      Your response is interesting because it focuses on the school system. What about the culture and attitudes surrounding education? One unhappy lesson I've learnt from assisting pupils in schools is that the teacher (and school) can only go so far. They can only do so much. What the pupil does away from the classroom, and their general approach to learning, knowledge and understanding, is very important. Simply changing the structure of the school system, or changing what is taught, does not address that cultural aspect of education.
      • Thread Starter
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      (Original post by Kolya)
      Your response is interesting because it focuses on the school system. What about the culture and attitudes surrounding education? One unhappy lesson I've learnt from assisting pupils in schools is that the teacher (and school) can only go so far. They can only do so much. What the pupil does away from the classroom, and their general approach to learning, knowledge and understanding, is very important. Simply changing the structure of the school system, or changing what is taught, does not address that cultural aspect of education.
      By all means, tell me how we would go about changing a culture?
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      So much wrong with this thread.

      Cos' all those kids in Estonia and Slovenia are stupid and it is our God given right to be better than them.

      Maybe they have just improved their education significantly; I doubt the person writing the article knows much of Estonian and Slovenian educational policy.
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      I'm really hoping Michael Gove can come up trumps on this one. Most of the British education system so far has been devised from looking at traditional teaching in Britain, then looking at what other countries are doing well (i.e. Finland), then randomly taking bits from Finland educational policy to hopefully benefit Britain. But not all of it. Just random bits. I'm really not entirely sure what the government hopes to gain by this cherry picking method! It's not worked at all so far!
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        (Original post by Teaddict)
        By all means, tell me how we would go about changing a culture?
        I dunno. But surely it's useful to correctly identify the main problem, rather than thinking some other solution will help when it might only have a small, insignificant effect.
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        (Original post by psychocustard)
        The problem with grammar schools is that the majority of kids who attend tend to be from middle class backgrounds, who have had the extra tuition or extra help at better primary schools to get them into the schools in the first place. Money speaks more than intelligence these days, which is just wrong.
        Its not money speaks more than intelligence, its the support. Richer families can afford extra tuition but that's only one way, how about staying after school and asking a teacher for help?

        (Original post by Xx.MissEG.xX)
        Yes, but not all people who go to comperehensives/non grammar schools are stupid.
        They just do not get an education which is as good.
        I disagree having been to both. I received a lot more help at my old state school. In general most people at grammer schools are independent and don't need help, they just get on with it. Infact at my previous grammer school you could write a note from home and do private study at home instead of coming to school. Whereas at my previous state school we had after-school sessions and lectures which cover the whole syllabus during study leave never had this at my grammer school.
        If you're the independent type grammer school works but if you want teachers to always be there then state schools are for you.

        (Original post by robinson999)
        how do you pick whos the brightest and at what age

        do they take a exam if they are one point out, go no sorry you must go to a poorly run state school, cos we are going to pump money into our best schools

        do you pick them at 5, 11, 13, 16 children learn at different rates, someone who is showing little to no understanding at year could by year 11 be a high achiever, it happens, do they get written off

        i don't like picking the "brightest" student to go here or there because where do you stop, we shouldn't have to pick, we should have the greatest education system in the world, teachers should be seen as heros, like how people see doctors, they should be getting paid £100,000+, school funding should be in the billions
        health and education are the 2 most important things to this country they should be top of the list
        Education should be incredibly expensive for government and absolutely free of charge for it's citizens. JUST LIKE? NATIONAL DEFENCE
        You have a point, but thats life. Doesnt matter what age you will be always be assessed.
        Go for a job interview at 25, you might need to pass non-cognitive tests as well as hold the specific degree.
        Apply for university at 18, you need the right A Level grades.
        Getting into sixth form, you need the right GCSE grades.

        Life is a race and some learn faster than others. But I'm a firm believer of bright people shining anywhere. I have been to many different schools; from a grammar school with a 80% A rate at A levels to a school with 60% literacy rate and I still succeeded education wise.

        Honestly failing state schools are rare. There are many good state schools and some failing ones, but they are not the majority. Besides failing schools shows the inadequacy of the teaching quality. Who would employ teachers that cannot teach? That's the difference between teachers and doctors. A doctor that doesn't have steady hands will never qualify as a surgeon. But a teacher that cannot teach can teach. I even had a PE teacher teach me maths because he had cancer so he couldn't do strenuous exercise and school couldn't fire him. There was a vacancy in the maths department so they made him a maths teacher.
        That right there is the problem the Government needs to address.

        But I agree on the importance of health and education. And thats why I'm against the rise in tuition fees. If you look at which unis are the best, most of them are American because they invest a lot more of their GNP into education. Same for the Asian Tigers. But since we dont have the money, it's not a solution.

        (Original post by Xx.MissEG.xX)
        So you think that the ''dumb'' ones should just not have a chance in life, simply because they are not as smart? Why should they not get a decent education?
        No they should opt for something more suitable. I would love to be an Olympic runner...but face it. I will never be good enough. I accept it and focus on my strengths. Just like my friend who's ideal job would be a singer but she knows her voice is only karaoke level. She accepts it and sings for a hobby since she can't live off her singing.
        So like that, those who are not academically suited should try alternatives. No one is saying they dont deserve a decent education. A decent education is Level 2 English and Maths skills. Secondary schools offer Level 2 and 3.

        (Original post by AskMeAnything)
        Since 2000 to now;

        from 7th to 25th place in reading;
        from 8th to 27th place in maths;
        from 4th to 16th in science.

        How can you support Labour? How?
        It's a wake up call when we an english speaking nation fall so far behind. But atleast now the problem is being tackled. Now english, grammer and spelling count towards non-english subjects.
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        (Original post by Kolya)
        I dunno. But surely it's useful to correctly identify the main problem, rather than thinking some other solution will help when it might only have a small, insignificant effect.
        There are flaws in the education system. I know government can address that. I don't know how government would deal with culture so it would seem odd of me to comment no?
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        (Original post by yummychocolate)
        Its not money speaks more than intelligence, its the support. Richer families can afford extra tuition but that's only one way, how about staying after school and asking a teacher for help?



        I disagree having been to both. I received a lot more help at my old state school. In general most people at grammer schools are independent and don't need help, they just get on with it. Infact at my previous grammer school you could write a note from home and do private study at home instead of coming to school. Whereas at my previous state school we had after-school sessions and lectures which cover the whole syllabus during study leave never had this at my grammer school.
        If you're the independent type grammer school works but if you want teachers to always be there then state schools are for you.



        You have a point, but thats life. Doesnt matter what age you will be always be assessed.
        Go for a job interview at 25, you might need to pass non-cognitive tests as well as hold the specific degree.
        Apply for university at 18, you need the right A Level grades.
        Getting into sixth form, you need the right GCSE grades.

        Life is a race and some learn faster than others. But I'm a firm believer of bright people shining anywhere. I have been to many different schools; from a grammar school with a 80% A rate at A levels to a school with 60% literacy rate and I still succeeded education wise.

        Honestly failing state schools are rare. There are many good state schools and some failing ones, but they are not the majority. Besides failing schools shows the inadequacy of the teaching quality. Who would employ teachers that cannot teach? That's the difference between teachers and doctors. A doctor that doesn't have steady hands will never qualify as a surgeon. But a teacher that cannot teach can teach. I even had a PE teacher teach me maths because he had cancer so he couldn't do strenuous exercise and school couldn't fire him. There was a vacancy in the maths department so they made him a maths teacher.
        That right there is the problem the Government needs to address.

        But I agree on the importance of health and education. And thats why I'm against the rise in tuition fees. If you look at which unis are the best, most of them are American because they invest a lot more of their GNP into education. Same for the Asian Tigers. But since we dont have the money, it's not a solution.



        No they should opt for something more suitable. I would love to be an Olympic runner...but face it. I will never be good enough. I accept it and focus on my strengths. Just like my friend who's ideal job would be a singer but she knows her voice is only karaoke level. She accepts it and sings for a hobby since she can't live off her singing.
        So like that, those who are not academically suited should try alternatives. No one is saying they dont deserve a decent education. A decent education is Level 2 English and Maths skills. Secondary schools offer Level 2 and 3.



        It's a wake up call when we an english speaking nation fall so far behind. But atleast now the problem is being tackled. Now english, grammer and spelling count towards non-english subjects.
        It depends to what school you go to, but even though our school does offer us support and help, I still do not think the quality of education is as good as it is in a grammar school. Of course the people in a grammar school have to be more independent, but they have a better chance of getting a higher grade. What grades did you get in your previous school?
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        Is it not just possible THEY got better? Instead everyone assumes we got worse.
       
       
       
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