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    (Original post by 01010000 01001010)
    I saw this a few weeks ago and assumed it was the video leaked by wikileaks back in 2007. Yes, I was incredibly angry at what I saw and heard, but this is America we are talking about - The biggest and greatest glorifiers of war and death that the world has known.

    Remember it was only 60 years ago when America, the land of the greats, dropped atom bombs on Japan killing 250,000 people.

    Also remember that this was all under Bush's order and a whole lot of good(and money) it did for the world.

    Yours faithfully, an avid pacifist.

    Yes, because it was completely wrong to drop an atomic weapon on a country that had attacked the US with no declaration of war, had fought bitterly during 1944-45 even when they were clearly going to lose - defending every single island and killing as many American troops in the process as possible (fighting to the death), had some of the worst torture camps (if not the worst...) the world has ever seen, treated US POWs in the most appalling ways, and refused to surrender.

    The assessment was that to win the war, it would cost another 500k American lives. Why should the Americans have to sacrifice 1/2million solders for a war they a) didn't start and indeed, had avoided b) When they had the ability to save all the lives of 500k of their own citizens.

    If the Germans/Japanese had the weapons, they would have used them in a heartbeat.

    I cant believe the selfishness of someone criticising the actions under the circumstances. Its all very well to be high minded and criticise, but actually think about what you are saying.

    I agree it was a horrible event in history - but rather better than the alternative.

    Of course, the video is shocking and there are bad apples in the US military - as there are in ANY military. Its just when you spend 60% of the worlds entire budget on your armed forces, and are trying to introduce democracy to a region by invading and occupying, things are bound to go wrong. However, some of the cover ups have been shocking.

    Things are of course far worse in the Russian, Chinese and many other militaries. Britain also has some very questionable incidents.

    Not that I agree (or ever did) with the strategy of invading Iraq. As for Bush...Im not entirely sure history will agree with you if Iraq does emerge as a semi-democratic state...it will be the first Muslim nation to achieve such a status...but we shall see. Certainly the near term doesn't look to good.

    America does somewhat glorify death and war...but at least they protect their own national interests and in 200 years have emerged from nothing to the most powerful country the world has ever known.

    Yes, the next decade or two will see an erosion of this status, but I think medium-long term the US will remain the world's pre-eminent power.

    It has a strongly growing population (very high natural growth rate for a Western country, far higher than Europe) where as China will actually be in decline. Dont forget, all of these will have a high GDP per capita, be (relatively) well educated etc...
    It also leads the world in education, innovation, tech etc and will continue to do so (Harvard's endowment was $38 BILLION in 2008)...compare that to Manchester, Britains 3rd wealthiest university with $180 million or so and Bristol with something like $85-90 million...

    And these are some of the wealthiest university's outside the US, with a tiny fraction of the finance behind them (hence why the UK needs higher fees...)

    Of course, there is a huge amount wrong with the US. But I do find some of the traditional, media driven criticisms a little inane.
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    (Original post by mackemforever)
    The key word there is apparently.

    Nobody knows how far away they were and if a helicopter is within the range of a rifle then it is extremely vulnerable. All it takes is for 1 round to hit the tail rotor, or the engines or near the base of the main rotor, and the helicopter goes down.

    So, if they were a long distance away then they were perfectly safe, but if they were within the range of an ak-47 then in their minds, and from what their training will have taught them, then they were in danger.
    Yeah apparently a mile away. They were still far away. You could see that the victims didn't even notice them.
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    (Original post by monkeyDace)
    Are you naturally stupid of something??? This is not about comparing figures but about the indiscriminate killing done by USA.

    Even then 3000 does come close to 100000.

    Of course, because 9/11 wasn't indiscriminate killing done by the USA...

    I do agree with your point though.
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    (Original post by Rooster523)
    What is spreading it around going to do? I don't want you to do anything, I'm just saying if you really were outraged you'd try and do something about it.

    Until you have been in a warzone you have no valid opinion on how a soldier should deal with death. Armed Forces humour is notoriously dark for a reason.
    Spreading it around will outrage more people, and the outraged people with power may be able to do something about it.

    Have you been in a warzone? If not, then you have no valid opinion either.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Once your signed up you don't have a choice. Many of those men had nothing else they could do bar the army
    Let's not get into the 'no choice' or freewill and determinism argument. Yes, they had a choice, and they chose to sign up knowing that they may well be forced to kill innocent people.
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    (Original post by pippa90)
    Let's not get into the 'no choice' or freewill and determinism argument. Yes, they had a choice, and they chose to sign up knowing that they may well be forced to kill innocent people.
    The soliders thought those people had weapons and from a distance in a helicopter in a combat situation you jsut cannot take the risk of waiting to see if its an RPG or not
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    (Original post by Xhotas)
    You're a pilot. Enemy has objects which look like RPG which would kill you. You get the go ahead to kill. You don't sit there going "Hold on, I'm just going to triple-check they have a gun before they shoot me." are you?
    They were too far away to be shot you do realise? The victims didn't even notice their helicopters.

    (Original post by big-boss-91)
    i wasn't talking about their behaviour, its their job to assess the situation and act upon it. they were trained for the situation.

    I think their behaviour was appalling but it kinda suits the americans
    I totally agree, the US police force behave in the same way, it's appalling.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    The soliders thought those people had weapons and from a distance in a helicopter in a combat situation you jsut cannot take the risk of waiting to see if its an RPG or not
    That's exactly it though, they were at a distance where a RPG wouldn't be able to reach them anyway.
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    COD is the disease that causes mankind to love killing people in war. Sorry, but I think the game Call of duty is a propaganda by the US. This game seriously distorts gamers perception of war.
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    (Original post by james212)
    Yes, because it was completely wrong to drop an atomic weapon on a country that had attacked the US with no declaration of war, had fought bitterly during 1944-45 even when they were clearly going to lose - defending every single island and killing as many American troops in the process as possible (fighting to the death), had some of the worst torture camps (if not the worst...) the world has ever seen, treated US POWs in the most appalling ways, and refused to surrender.

    etc
    No one denies the US has cool citizens, and they make a productive society, you don't need to regurgitate every fact they taught me at GCSE History to try and defend the act which should really be not defend-able. Your defence is quite often filled with 'If Nagasaki/Hiroshima hadn't taken place, X evil deed would have been done instead'. That's not true at all and is a cheap way to defend something.

    The point is events like the two atomic bombs can have been avoided and the lesson learnt should be that it never should happen again. The events of the video show that on the smaller scale it is still occuring.
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    (Original post by pippa90)
    They were too far away to be shot you do realise? The victims didn't even notice their helicopters.

    Are you a weapons expert now? Do you honestly think that the American Airforce is that thick they would just shoot anything without justification? Groundforces maybe, but you have to be a lot more careful in the air. You have to get a lot of orders before you get given the green light. They examined the situation, but you're patrolling an area and see suspicious activity. Look at the way they were acting, cameras can only pick up so much and it's a lot harder to analysis the situation when you're actually there. They had to act fast before they got out of the way, what would happen if they DID have RPGs? For all the pilots knew, they did. They wanted to get rid of them before they hurt more US forces.

    They might not have been a direct threat to them, but they certainly acted suspiciously, in a hostile area, the patrolling forces and their commanding officers hadn't been told of any journalist going into the area, they have objects which look like RPGS... This tape could be used against the US if they didn't fire on them and they DID have weapons
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    The soliders thought those people had weapons and from a distance in a helicopter in a combat situation you jsut cannot take the risk of waiting to see if its an RPG or not
    Alternatively you can turn around and get out of danger. Whilst you're at it you can pack your backs and leave the country whose civilians you're supposedly meant to be liberating or protecting or however you want to put it.
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    (Original post by pippa90)
    That's exactly it though, they were at a distance where a RPG wouldn't be able to reach them anyway.
    The range of an RPG is more than half a mile so its quite likely it could have hit them
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    Seems to me that they were very quick to positively ID the guys, they couldn't see clearly at all whether or not they had weapons.
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    Like the Roman Empire, the US empire will go down eventually if it continues creating wars. When an empire gets too big and arrogant, and its people become oblivious, then the collapse of US imperialism is inevitable.
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    (Original post by AndroidLight)
    Alternatively you can turn around and get out of danger. Whilst you're at it you can pack your backs and leave the country whose civilians you're supposedly meant to be liberating or protecting or however you want to put it.
    Issue is about an individual situation not the context of the wider war. So comment on this or stfu
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    Tsr members have spent way too much time trying to sympathise with soldiers. Seems they're forgetting to sympathise with real people.

    Imagine those shot in the video were British. Hell, imagine it was your father shot in that video. I very, very much doubt you would sit back and think "oh didums, that's war for you. Soldiers have to get through it some way and whatnot"

    ****ing pricks.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Issue is about an individual situation not the context of the wider war. So comment on this or stfu
    Ok sure.

    In this individual situation, the god in the skies could have turned around and got away. Or would their killing machine not have been fast enough?

    And in running away one would assume they were not there to fulfil their duties as they would not have killed the so called terrorists. So why be there at all? They should have packed their bags and left. Instead they chose to stay and shoot down civilians. Remember this is what happens behind close doors. It takes leaks to bring it to the public.
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    (Original post by Xhotas)
    Are you a weapons expert now? Do you honestly think that the American Airforce is that thick they would just shoot anything without justification? Groundforces maybe, but you have to be a lot more careful in the air. You have to get a lot of orders before you get given the green light. They examined the situation, but you're patrolling an area and see suspicious activity. Look at the way they were acting, cameras can only pick up so much and it's a lot harder to analysis the situation when you're actually there. They had to act fast before they got out of the way, what would happen if they DID have RPGs? For all the pilots knew, they did. They wanted to get rid of them before they hurt more US forces.

    They might not have been a direct threat to them, but they certainly acted suspiciously, in a hostile area, the patrolling forces and their commanding officers hadn't been told of any journalist going into the area, they have objects which look like RPGS... This tape could be used against the US if they didn't fire on them and they DID have weapons
    I see a group of chavs in the distance, a couple appear to have weapons so I shoot them. You think this is acceptable?

    (Original post by AndroidLight)
    Alternatively you can turn around and get out of danger. Whilst you're at it you can pack your backs and leave the country whose civilians you're supposedly meant to be liberating or protecting or however you want to put it.
    Exactly It's nice to have someone on here who doesn't think that going round murdering people on assumptions is fine.

    (Original post by Aj12)
    The range of an RPG is more than half a mile so its quite likely it could have hit them
    It's said that they were a mile away.
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    (Original post by James4d)
    Tsr members have spent way too much time trying to sympathise with soldiers. Seems they're forgetting to sympathise with real people.

    Imagine those shot in the video were British. Hell, imagine it was your father shot in that video. I very, very much doubt you would sit back and think "oh didums, that's war for you. Soldiers have to get through it some way and whatnot"

    ****ing pricks.
    What do you expect, when they play games like COD and MOH
 
 
 
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