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March of Resistance to Education & Public Sector Cuts Announced: 20 December, London Watch

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    (Original post by yawn)
    For the benefit of a country, education is not expensive...ignorance is.
    Very true. But the Government isn't reducing places, or the ability for people to go to uni. They're allowing students to go to university, they've built in controls to ensure that people from disadvantaged backgrounds are helped with the costs, they've increased the earnings threshold. They've done everything they can practically do to make the system as fair as possible; the only change is that the student will pay for their tuition in its entirety, rather than the taxpayer, which is fair, surely?
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      (Original post by Aj12)
      For the benefit of the person education is not expensive ignorance is.:rolleyes:
      I get frustrated by ignorance...ignorance costs the country far more in terms of having an ill-educated work force than providing for a well-educated work force.

      If there aren't sufficient people who can work at a higher level of understanding, other countries won't invest in us.

      Now do you understand why education isn't as expensive in comparison to ignorance?
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      New years is the worst and best time to organise the event. It will get the most attention and publicity. But, there will be a lot of causalities due to the non-protesters getting angry, especially when there is a more of a chance they are drunk.
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      (Original post by yawn)
      And for the wealthiest earning in excess of £51,3000 repaying their loans through PAYE...repaid even quicker as I said.

      They don't have a yoke choking them for the thirty best years of their lives...when they would be raising a family, buying their own homes, helping their children through their education years and investing money for their retirements.

      The point of the chart was to show that people earning less won't even pay back the full amount; it's only the people who earn a lot who'll likely pay off the full amount. Say the average loan was £37k (3 years fees and maintenance loan), they'd have to earn an average ~£35k to pay that all back (sorry need to edit the chart as there was a mistake on it). That's certainly enough money to raise a family and buy a home.

      It's not a yoke. People will have more disposable income than current graduates. :rolleyes:
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        (Original post by Mad Vlad)
        Very true. But the Government isn't reducing places, or the ability for people to go to uni. They're allowing students to go to university, they've built in controls to ensure that people from disadvantaged backgrounds are helped with the costs, they've increased the earnings threshold. They've done everything they can practically do to make the system as fair as possible; the only change is that the student will pay for their tuition in its entirety, rather than the taxpayer, which is fair, surely?
        Do you not think that future generations of 6th formers will decide not to go to university because of the working-life burden of tens of thousands of pounds worth of debt accrued over a three year period?

        Following through...the country will be left with an ill-educated population that is not equipped for the employment market of the 21st century. As a result, we will be less competitive in terms of exports and investment in the country. We shall become the poor relatives of Europe.

        It has always been the case that a well-educated workforce is a great benefit to all, including taxpayers...now that ethos has been swept away and leaves us with the possibility that only the very wealthy will be able to access higher education...social engineering at it's worst.

        I am presenting prizes at a 6th form college on Monday night. I am very unsure how to encourage the students to aspire to ever great educational heights without risking upsetting them because they might now be turned off HE, despite all the coalition propaganda.

        What would you say to them about the potential mill-stone of a working life debt around their necks?
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        (Original post by yawn)
        The Coalition have researched their case before Cable made his recommendations. They know that the overwhelming majority of graduate starts working at graduate jobs on pay levels exceeding £21,000 so there will be a very small proportion of graduates earning less than £21,000 on jobs that do not require a degree...thus very few who will not start repaying their loans immediately on commencing employment.
        This means they will have to pay more later when they get promotion. By this age they might be 27 years old and want to get married and have kids.

        Their lives should not be weighed down by the ConDem debt anchor.
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        My friends and I will be at the protest to march peacefully ~ I do not condone violence or vandalism of any shade ~ and have our point heard. My arts based uni is going to be incredibly hard hit by these cuts.

        The police threat of "robust" action is an interesting one.... they would be well advised to remember that they'll be having their own budgets cut and will need our empathy.
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        (Original post by yawn)
        Do you not think that future generations of 6th formers will decide not to go to university because of the working-life burden of tens of thousands of pounds worth of debt accrued over a three year period?

        What would you say to them about the potential mill-stone of a working life debt around their necks?
        No. If people want to go to university, then they'll still go.

        I'd say to them that it's an investment in their own future that they would have had to have paid in tax, anyway, had the government given it to them for free.
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          (Original post by ily_em)
          The point of the chart was to show that people earning less won't even pay back the full amount; it's only the people who earn a lot who'll likely pay off the full amount. Say the average loan was £37k (3 years fees and maintenance loan), they'd have to earn an average ~£35k to pay that all back (sorry need to edit the chart as there was a mistake on it). That's certainly enough money to raise a family and buy a home.

          It's not a yoke. People will have more disposable income than current graduates. :rolleyes:
          You really believe that a gross income of £35k is enough money to raise a family and buy a home as well are repaying a student loan of say £40,000?

          You obviously have absolutely no idea of how to exist and do all that you would want to do with a family on a residual income of say £17,000 after deducting NI conts. of 10% of £35,000; tax at 20% on £30,000 and student loan repayments of say, £2,5000.

          It's the residuals that count, not the max's.
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          (Original post by Scooby Poo)
          My friends and I will be at the protest to march peacefully ~ I do not condone violence or vandalism of any shade ~ and have our point heard. My arts based uni is going to be incredibly hard hit by these cuts.

          The police threat of "robust" action is an interesting one.... they would be well advised to remember that they'll be having their own budgets cut and will need our empathy.
          The police will be in a far stronger position come next year when the government reviews the police budget. The student protests are only making a stronger case for why the police should not have their funding cut
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          (Original post by twl)
          This means they will have to pay more later when they get promotion. By this age they might be 27 years old and want to get married and have kids.

          Their lives should not be weighed down by the ConDem debt anchor.
          At 27 they'd still be paying off their student loans if they were under this system. So at that point in their lives they'd actually have more disposable income than current graduates (due to the repayment limit being raised), making it easier to have kids, get a mortgage etc.

          (Original post by twl)
          I am presenting prizes at a 6th form college on Monday night. I am very unsure how to encourage the students to aspire to ever great educational heights without risking upsetting them because they might now be turned off HE, despite all the coalition propaganda.

          What would you say to them about the potential mill-stone of a working life debt around their necks?
          Erm... don't call it a 'mill-stone'? And explain clearly how it works and how it's not a case of 'normal' debt or having to find £9k a year? And get them to read this:

          http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...ons-education/
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          (Original post by Mad Vlad)
          But the Government isn't reducing places, or the ability for people to go to uni.
          In which way will a debt of many tens of thousands not impair ~ and, in turn, deter ~ the ability of some gifted but financially disadvantaged students to attend university?
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          (Original post by yawn)
          The difference between the two was very significant.

          The Poll Tax was imposed on everyone who was eligible to vote...the same amount regardless of income or amassed wealth.

          The Council Tax is paid on a calculated amount dependent on the the rateable value of one's home. Essentially, the more valuable a house, the more is paid.

          So in essence, the wealthier paid more than the less wealthy...unlike the new rate of tuition fees!

          I'm really glad that the protests will continue...it is all we have left as citizens with which to bring our feelings of the actions of government to their immediate attention.
          Yeeees but many people who bought their houses off the council in the 80s for pitiful prices and who aren't exactly on high wages, pay disproportionate rates because of the way the property market has distorted house prices beyond all belief. The option is sell your house or continue to struggle to pay the council tax upon it, which is out of whack because of our out of whack housing market. Other relatively rich people stay in cheaper housing than they could afford and thus pay less council tax than they should do given their income.

          It's not as simple as the council tax being inherantly fairer.
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          (Original post by Scooby Poo)
          In which way will a debt of many tens of thousands not impair ~ and, in turn, deter ~ the ability of some gifted but financially disadvantaged students to attend university?
          Because the debt not even touched until you earn 21k and after that repayment is very low. This will not deter anyone.

          The meer psychological fear of debt is hardly an argument against rising fees
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          (Original post by yawn)
          You really believe that a gross income of £35k is enough money to raise a family and buy a home as well are repaying a student loan of say £40,000?

          You obviously have absolutely no idea of how to exist and do all that you would want to do with a family on a residual income of say £17,000 after deducting NI conts. of 10% of £35,000; tax at 20% on £30,000 and student loan repayments of say, £2,5000.

          It's the residuals that count, not the max's.
          Assuming it's a two parent family, then yes. Both parents are likely to be working so the income would be higher than that - we're just talking about one person earning £35k. I'm basing it on experience here: my parents' combined income is £35k and we have two houses (because they are divorced now).

          Student loan repayments each year at £35k would be £1,260. Where did you get £2,500 from?

          edit: according to this, residual income for a person earning £35k would be ~£24,814 (I have taken off student loan). A bit higher than £17k!
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          (Original post by Scooby Poo)
          In which way will a debt of many tens of thousands not impair ~ and, in turn, deter ~ the ability of some gifted but financially disadvantaged students to attend university?
          It's not a debt in the traditional sense, viz. a liability. It doesn't appear on your balance sheet, it's just an extra "tax" on what you earn over £21k.

          A gifted child from any background is going to go to university, because they'll have the brains to realise that it's short-term pain for long-term gain. :fyi:
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            (Original post by ily_em)
            Assuming it's a two parent family, then yes. Both parents are likely to be working so the income would be higher than that - we're just talking about one person earning £35k. I'm basing it on experience here: my parents' combined income is £35k and we have two houses (because they are divorced now).

            Student loan repayments each year at £35k would be £1,260. Where did you get £2,500 from?

            edit: according to this, residual income for a person earning £35k would be ~£24,814 I have taken off student loan).
            I overlooked the fact that it is the difference between earning of £21k and £35 at 9%, not the whole of the upper earning...unlike NI conts which is an all or nothing basis, ie you pay 11% on entire earnings if they are above the lower earnings limit.

            This is a comment from Moneymarket.com:

            Yet for everyone else, the majority, those with starting salaries of £20-£30k and 5% annual pay rises, the policy is a 30 year graduate tax (at a very punitive rate) on all earnings above £21k and they are likely, due to the real rate of interest and no facility for overpayment, to repay the true cost of their borrowing many times over.
            Any thoughts?
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            (Original post by yawn)
            And for the wealthiest earning in excess of £51,3000 repaying their loans through PAYE...repaid even quicker as I said.

            They don't have a yoke choking them for the thirty best years of their lives...when they would be raising a family, buying their own homes, helping their children through their education years and investing money for their retirements.
            Well then if that's a worry, maybe people should consider doing courses with better prospects :rolleyes:

            And lets be honest, these are hardly "choking" payments.
            If you're on £25,000 a year, it works out at £30 a month.
            Wow, that's as much as my phone contract :rolleyes:
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              (Original post by Mad Vlad)
              No. If people want to go to university, then they'll still go.
              There is absolutely no assurety that someone who was considering going to university rather than seeking work with good A-levels will still want to go and encumber themselves with a debt of £40k.

              I'd say to them that it's an investment in their own future that they would have had to have paid in tax, anyway, had the government given it to them for free.
              The point is though Vlad, that their income will not only be subject to income tax, but also another tax in effect for repayment of that which they wouldn't have incurred if they hadn't gone to university.

              How can their degree be an 'investment' for the future when they are not going to be any better off in terms of income if one takes into account the costs of the life-time debt and deducts it from any higher life-time earnings...especially since they will have lost out on earnings that they could have received if they had gone into full-time work rather than university?

              I remain unconvinced, and I cannot try to convince others of that which I cannot see myself. I would be misleading them.
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                (Original post by TShadow383)
                Well then if that's a worry, maybe people should consider doing courses with better prospects :rolleyes:

                And lets be honest, these are hardly "choking" payments.
                If you're on £25,000 a year, it works out at £30 a month.
                Wow, that's as much as my phone contract :rolleyes:
                And how much would the repayment be if your income is in excess of £60K a year? £450 a month? After all, most go to university with the idea of providing an investment for the future in terms of earning potential.
               
               
               
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