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d.luffy
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#41
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#41
(Original post by jacketpotato)
That's right. In the US, the typical route is one degree at college and then a 4-year law degree (JD) at law school, followed by the bar exam for the relevant state (bar exam is just a few weeks study). The JD is a graduate degree, generally you can't do it unless you already have an undergraduate degree. KCL and UCL do a 4year combined LLM-JD in association with a US university, however I do not know whether this will be taken as seriously as a full JD.

Note that if you study in the UK, you are studying UK law not US law. If you have a law degree in the UK, you can qualify to practice in California or New York by passing the relevant bar exam (it isn't so easy for other states). However, if the bar exam is your only US law qualification you are not an attractive candidate for US firms; realistically you need (at the very least) a US-law LLM or (better) a JD from a US law school.

Also note visa issues, you need to think about how you are going to get a green card. If you want to work in the US this demands serious research.

I don't know about Syria. Syria is a developing market so I imagine that the standards of Syrian law firms are lower than the standards of developed markets, and I imagine that a UK degree is fine, but you will need to check this. As the standards of Syrian law firms will not be as high as those of law firms in developed markets, I don't think experience of practicing in Syria would make you attractive to firms in developed markets. Of course if you get experience of practicing in London or New York or Hong Kong or Singapore or Australia before practising in Syria, then this is much less of a problem.

KCL is an excellent university. Obviously its not quite as good as Oxford or Cambridge but still a great university.

If you want to work in the US you need to do some serious research .
You mean Libya? I never mentionned syria lol :P

So I see being a lawyer in USA is a long route, but the advatange that if you study in USA + UK, is that you get to know the laws of the 2 most demanding countries, which firms will want you as a priority since if they have a firm in USA and th eoriginal one is in UK they can send you there because you already know what you need to know.

Visa for swiss people isn't a problem, Swiss people got new passports which you can enter USA without any visa.
And about the green card i have relatives there who can help me out.

There alot of unemployed workers in USA and me having a chance to get one is slight, but this right now isn't the main problem lol ... I have already set my future but you never know when it can change.

And by the way, I received information right now that, wherever I study whether it is USA or UK, since I have a swiss passport UN in switzerland are looking for lawyers, the only thing is that I would need to have studied in a good university.


PS: Cambridge seems to help students from the middle east with all that is going on right now, I have emailed them to request information and if they help students...etc as mentioned last time, I will let you know what they told me.
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Schott
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#42
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(Original post by Zacho)
Hi, I think i remember reading that you work at a top London law firm (i.e. the sort that so many people apply to). I just wondered what the academic background of you and the other trainees there is? I'm not going into law, i'm just interested to know from someone who is actually in a firm as opposed to the often unsusbstantiated stories from other students that everyone is from Oxbridge.
I know you didn't address this to me (sorry for jumping in!) but there were statistics published about trainee solicitors and the universities they came from. It found that in the most elite firms - the magic circle firms (Slaughter and May, A&O, Freshfields, Clifford Chance, Linklaters), Hogan Lovells, Herbert Smith, Ashurst, etc - the proportion of Oxbridge students taken in at each recruitment cycle ranged from about 30% all the way up to 48/9% at SandM. The average was around 38-40%.

So it isn't all Oxbridge but obviously there are rather a lot of them - this in itself is not why they get accepted though.
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jacketpotato
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(Original post by d.luffy)
You mean Libya? I never mentionned syria lol :P

So I see being a lawyer in USA is a long route, but the advatange that if you study in USA + UK, is that you get to know the laws of the 2 most demanding countries, which firms will want you as a priority since if they have a firm in USA and th eoriginal one is in UK they can send you there because you already know what you need to know.
Yeah meant Syria

Well kind of but that depends on the qualification. For example, you might pass the NY bar exam and so be qualified in both New York and the UK, but the bar exam by itself, whilst a nice asset, isn't of enormous value and is unlikely to be enough to allow you to land a job in the US without experience in the relevant field. I will probably take the NY Bar over the next year or so, but I won't be competent to advise on New York law directly at the end of it!

Its not necessarily just the case of knowing the laws of the two most demanding countries. Things are a bit more complicated than that - for example, you will need experience in corporate finance to move around as a corporate finance lawyer. In addition, the laws of civil law countries (most of Europe, South America, North Africa) are really very different - the way in which the legal systems work and the way in which civil lawyers approach things are really very different, you won't be competent to advise in these jurisdictions on matters of local law.

Visa for swiss people isn't a problem, Swiss people got new passports which you can enter USA without any visa.
And about the green card i have relatives there who can help me out.
For a tourist or study visa you can get in fine, but not for an employment visa, no. I don't believe the fact that you have relatives helps get a green card unless the relatives are your parents. You need to research this properly.

And by the way, I received information right now that, wherever I study whether it is USA or UK, since I have a swiss passport UN in switzerland are looking for lawyers, the only thing is that I would need to have studied in a good university.
Fair enough, but research it properly. There may be a preference for civil or common lawyers (civil and common law systems are very different), and there may be a preference for people with LLMs in international law and/or language skills.
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adam0311
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(Original post by jacketpotato)
That's right. In the US, the typical route is one degree at college and then a 4-year law degree (JD) at law school, followed by the bar exam for the relevant state (bar exam is just a few weeks study). The JD is a graduate degree, generally you can't do it unless you already have an undergraduate degree. KCL and UCL do a 4year combined LLM-JD in association with a US university, however I do not know whether this will be taken as seriously as a full JD.

Note that if you study in the UK, you are studying UK law not US law. If you have a law degree in the UK, you can qualify to practice in California or New York by passing the relevant bar exam (it isn't so easy for other states). However, if the bar exam is your only US law qualification you are not an attractive candidate for US firms; realistically you need (at the very least) a US-law LLM or (better) a JD from a US law school.

Also note visa issues, you need to think about how you are going to get a green card. If you want to work in the US this demands serious research.

I don't know about Syria. Syria is a developing market so I imagine that the standards of Syrian law firms are lower than the standards of developed markets, and I imagine that a UK degree is fine, but you will need to check this. As the standards of Syrian law firms will not be as high as those of law firms in developed markets, I don't think experience of practicing in Syria would make you attractive to firms in developed markets. Of course if you get experience of practicing in London or New York or Hong Kong or Singapore or Australia before practising in Syria, then this is much less of a problem.

KCL is an excellent university. Obviously its not quite as good as Oxford or Cambridge but still a great university.

If you want to work in the US you need to do some serious research .

This.

Its also worth noting that the US legal market is in shambles.

Edit: Just a few quick anecdotes from my personal experiences with the US legal market (you can research overall market indicators for how bad things actually are in the US legal market)....

-My bestfriend's gf's dad (a partner at one of the bigger firms), had his pay withheld for 2 yrs due to firm finances.
-I'm currently a part-time paralegal (you don't need a qualification for this in the US) making $10 an hour (I'm 17). The firm just hired 3-4 JD's from a top 20 law school who are doing the exact same tasks as me and getting the same exact wage as me. They had absolutely no other options. Think about that. Going through a US undergraduate program (4 yrs) + a US law school (3 yrs) to end up with the same job and wage as a 17 yr old.
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d.luffy
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#45
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#45
(Original post by jacketpotato)
Yeah meant Syria

Well kind of but that depends on the qualification. For example, you might pass the NY bar exam and so be qualified in both New York and the UK, but the bar exam by itself, whilst a nice asset, isn't of enormous value and is unlikely to be enough to allow you to land a job in the US without experience in the relevant field. I will probably take the NY Bar over the next year or so, but I won't be competent to advise on New York law directly at the end of it!

Its not necessarily just the case of knowing the laws of the two most demanding countries. Things are a bit more complicated than that - for example, you will need experience in corporate finance to move around as a corporate finance lawyer. In addition, the laws of civil law countries (most of Europe, South America, North Africa) are really very different - the way in which the legal systems work and the way in which civil lawyers approach things are really very different, you won't be competent to advise in these jurisdictions on matters of local law.


For a tourist or study visa you can get in fine, but not for an employment visa, no. I don't believe the fact that you have relatives helps get a green card unless the relatives are your parents. You need to research this properly.


Fair enough, but research it properly. There may be a preference for civil or common lawyers (civil and common law systems are very different), and there may be a preference for people with LLMs in international law and/or language skills.
Yeah I forgot the part where the UN needs Lawyers with master or + education certificate.

So america is tough to get a visa? What if your a student there, logically you may deicde to stay there and finish your studies and work?

This is still alot in the future to think about I still have my university to finish first so when I get done with university ill post here :P

I have emailed cambridge and they replied to me telling me that the entrance isn't based on the IGCSE but more or less the interview + other assesments including A level...etc I think I have a bigger chance if I apply to Cambridge, since by having the first step which is interview thats enough to kind of show a good interview. But they told me they Look on the IGCSE but it isn't based solely on them.

Does extra activity like sports help you with your application in universities? Since I want to know all I have to put in them..etc

(Original post by adam0311)
This.

Its also worth noting that the US legal market is in shambles.

Edit: Just a few quick anecdotes from my personal experiences with the US legal market (you can research overall market indicators for how bad things actually are in the US legal market)....

-My bestfriend's gf's dad (a partner at one of the bigger firms), had his pay withheld for 2 yrs due to firm finances.
-I'm currently a part-time paralegal (you don't need a qualification for this in the US) making $10 an hour (I'm 17). The firm just hired 3-4 JD's from a top 20 law school who are doing the exact same tasks as me and getting the same exact wage as me. They had absolutely no other options. Think about that. Going through a US undergraduate program (4 yrs) + a US law school (3 yrs) to end up with the same job and wage as a 17 yr old.
Damn thats one weird thing that happened, but I don't think all of it is like that. If I get to be in Cambridge and after I finish the undergraduate degree I would head to do my masters in USA to get familiar with the things there....
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jacketpotato
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#46
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(Original post by d.luffy)
Yeah I forgot the part where the UN needs Lawyers with master or + education certificate.

So america is tough to get a visa? What if your a student there, logically you may deicde to stay there and finish your studies and work?

This is still alot in the future to think about I still have my university to finish first so when I get done with university ill post here :P

I have emailed cambridge and they replied to me telling me that the entrance isn't based on the IGCSE but more or less the interview + other assesments including A level...etc I think I have a bigger chance if I apply to Cambridge, since by having the first step which is interview thats enough to kind of show a good interview. But they told me they Look on the IGCSE but it isn't based solely on them.

Does extra activity like sports help you with your application in universities? Since I want to know all I have to put in them..etc
Yes, it is very tough to get an employment visa in the states. You are allowed to study there (on the basis that you are paying the university) but it is harder to be allowed to work there (on the basis that you are competing with Americans for jobs). You need to think about this carefully.

You need A*AA at A-level really, the vast majority of Cambridge applicants have these grades. Extra activites do help and are important, and all applicants will have some great extra-curriculars. These go in your personal statement, there are many guides about statement on TSR and on google.
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d.luffy
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#47
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(Original post by jacketpotato)
Yes, it is very tough to get an employment visa in the states. You are allowed to study there (on the basis that you are paying the university) but it is harder to be allowed to work there (on the basis that you are competing with Americans for jobs). You need to think about this carefully.

You need A*AA at A-level really, the vast majority of Cambridge applicants have these grades. Extra activites do help and are important, and all applicants will have some great extra-curriculars. These go in your personal statement, there are many guides about statement on TSR and on google.
I see even americans lol.

Yes I have just read there website and they need A*AA in A level, its kinda getting tougher and tougher....

Yeah I have extra curriculars too :P

Though I have to start looking about interview on how to really give them a nice speech...etc

I think Cambridge gives a wider chance then oxford personally.
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adam0311
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(Original post by d.luffy)

Damn thats one weird thing that happened, but I don't think all of it is like that. If I get to be in Cambridge and after I finish the undergraduate degree I would head to do my masters in USA to get familiar with the things there....
Hate to tell you, but even at Harvard Law School--people are leaving unemployed. Only 59% of the class placed at AMLAW250 firms+clerkships.
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d.luffy
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#49
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(Original post by adam0311)
Hate to tell you, but even at Harvard Law School--people are leaving unemployed. Only 59% of the class placed at AMLAW250 firms+clerkships.
Are you sure? top universities gives jobs to their top students which basically in haravrd all of them are top students....
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by adam0311)
Hate to tell you, but even at Harvard Law School--people are leaving unemployed. Only 59% of the class placed at AMLAW250 firms+clerkships.
Is the AMLAW250 list representative of employment? A lot of Harvard law graduates will have political ambitions which will mean practising law back home.
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adam0311
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(Original post by d.luffy)
Are you sure? top universities gives jobs to their top students which basically in haravrd all of them are top students....
If you are suggesting that H takes them on as academics, then no.


(Original post by nulli tertius)
Is the AMLAW250 list representative of employment? A lot of Harvard law graduates will have political ambitions which will mean practising law back home.
Only 9% of the class is international.

With regards to political ambitions--the point is that pretty much only median and above can snag biglaw.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by adam0311)

Only 9% of the class is international.

With regards to political ambitions--the point is that pretty much only median and above can snag biglaw.
By back home I didn't mean foreign parts. I meant going back to one's home town to practice law in order to pursue election to a state or municipal legislature or executive office.
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adam0311
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#53
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
By back home I didn't mean foreign parts. I meant going back to one's home town to practice law in order to pursue election to a state or municipal legislature or executive office.
This accounts for maybe .1% of the class. The majority of people who want the political route still go with a federal clerkship or DOJ Honors (and the like).

I'm not knocking HLS, I'm simply showing that the legal marekt in the US is pretty tough to break into. If only half of HLS can pull biglaw and a bottom top 20 (so from T14 to T20) places about 10%-15% biglaw, its a pretty weak market.
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LadyRowena
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#54
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Have you considered the University of Edinburgh? I say this because I read on the University of Edinburgh thread that they accept all international students who meet the entry requirements (I would verify this, though, as it may have changed) and Edinburgh is an excellent university, top 15. The only issue would be that Scottish law is quite different to English law courses so I imagine you'd either have to only practise in Scotland or so some post-grad studies.

Another option would be to do a degree in another subject and do a law conversion course afterwards if it's the career in law that you're after. Just bear in mind that only about 10% of Law graduates actually manage to become barristers and solicitors; it's fiercely competitive.
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d.luffy
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#55
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(Original post by LadyRowena)
Have you considered the University of Edinburgh? I say this because I read on the University of Edinburgh thread that they accept all international students who meet the entry requirements (I would verify this, though, as it may have changed) and Edinburgh is an excellent university, top 15. The only issue would be that Scottish law is quite different to English law courses so I imagine you'd either have to only practise in Scotland or so some post-grad studies.

Another option would be to do a degree in another subject and do a law conversion course afterwards if it's the career in law that you're after. Just bear in mind that only about 10% of Law graduates actually manage to become barristers and solicitors; it's fiercely competitive.
Hey, thanks but no I do not want to do a conversion, and I also do not want to do law in scottland, my only choices are UK or USA. I wouldn't go for another country.

And no I am not an international student but I have a swiss passport the only thing is I left switzerland 5 years ago due this I got poor education in Libya my home country.

To be honest I am still going to try an entry in Cambridge and I am also going to email UCL and USL to get answers...etc so at least when I apply they know who I am.
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tehforum
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(Original post by jacketpotato)
Hi, yes, I'm a trainee at a top city firm. Roughly 40% are Oxbridge, 50% are from other top universities (UCL, LSE and Durham are the most numerous, a fair few Bristol/Manchester/Durham grads knocking around too), 5% studied abroad and are qualified in another jurisdiction and 5% come from non-top tier universities (places like Kent and Reading).

So not everyone is Oxbridge, but a fair few are. It was recently reported in thelawyer that Slaughter & May trainees are just over 50% Oxbridge, in the rest of the Magic Circle its a bit less but not much less.
Wow.
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LadyRowena
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(Original post by d.luffy)
Hey, thanks but no I do not want to do a conversion, and I also do not want to do law in scottland, my only choices are UK or USA. I wouldn't go for another country.
While the Scottish uni system is different to that of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, Scotland is still part of the UK. :P

But yeah, I thought you were applying as an international so my bad. :') Sorry about that. In that case I would forget Edinburgh; they're just as competitive as Oxbridge these days and you'd be hindered by the fact that you studied Scottish law.
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d.luffy
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(Original post by LadyRowena)
While the Scottish uni system is different to that of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, Scotland is still part of the UK. :P

But yeah, I thought you were applying as an international so my bad. :') Sorry about that. In that case I would forget Edinburgh; they're just as competitive as Oxbridge these days and you'd be hindered by the fact that you studied Scottish law.
Ha absolutely, I would go for USA or uk ... I am not talking about wales or whatsoever :P
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Zacho
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(Original post by d.luffy)
Ha absolutely, I would go for USA or uk ... I am not talking about wales or whatsoever :P
England and Wales have the same legal system. UK is made up of different legal systems. England and Wales though have the same one.

You wouldn't be expected to know that yet, but i thought i'd let you know!

So that means if you study law in Cardiff, you will be able to practice in England and Wales.
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d.luffy
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(Original post by Zacho)
England and Wales have the same legal system. UK is made up of different legal systems. England and Wales though have the same one.

You wouldn't be expected to know that yet, but i thought i'd let you know!
Yes thanks english law.

I don't know because I don't live in UK yet.
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