Working class girls/women, question for Watch

darkxangel
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(Original post by Mr-Dangerous)
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You have a awesome taste in woman!
Thanks! I hear that a lot.
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bjh30
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(Original post by rugbyladosc)
Yeah maybe in Victorian England. :facepalm:

(We don't have Lords of the manner and peasents working on farms nowadays btw)

Nowadays upper class means being born into a family with money. Families who used to own manner houses/ members of the aristocracy are probably going to be rich today.
You simply couldn't be more wrong if you tried I'm afraid. Firstly, in Britain, money has very little to do with 'class'. Secondly, its only really people of working class/upper class background that still talk about 'class' - nobody really cares (and I certainly couldnt give a c--p what 'class' people are - its about their values, them as an individual). Thirdly, it's spelt Manor not manner. Fourthly owning a 'Manor House' does not make you rich - I suppose it means your relatively well off, but most certainly not 'rich'. Fifth the aristocracy have been losing money for years, and I hardly know anyone with serious money any-more who is from such a background - I can think of a few who have inherited vast amounts of money - but overwhelmingly 'rich' people I have met at school, through business etc have been self made - the really rich actually tend to come from nothing - they are more motivated and driven. Go to a leading public school in Britain, take a look around. Even at Eton, the last remaining school where there are aristocrats still there (seriously, they hardly exist at most other top public schools), they are probably a minority now...Even a decade ago, such family's were using their last bits of wealth to pay the fees - today, they simply don't have the money. Think about it, to send your kids to Eton, say you have 2. That's £60k a year fees. Allow £5k each for yearly extras (they bill you for everything). That's £140k you need to earn, before tax, just to put children through school. Basically, you need an income of MINIMUM £400k a year for it to be seriously viable, and I would say a lot more to be comfortable. If you are not earning that money, based upon a 3% return on assets (allowing for enough to cover inflation to keep your money of circa the same value), you would need to have assets circa £13.5million. Remember that you pay 40% IHT. That means someone would have to leave you, what, circa £21million.

When you have paid IHT several times over, as people who used to own 'manor houses' would have, you ain't going to have much left. That, combined with the expense of maintaining a large houses, not working, school fees etc etc will erode your wealth very quickly. Plus there's the small fact that if you aren't smart in how you spend money, people clever than yourself will make more, find ways to get you to spend it etc etc and you will rapidly lose out (look at the drinking/gambling problems experienced by members of the aristocracy).

The upper classes generally don't have any money. In the UK, it is the 'Upper Middle Class' who have the money, and they will never be 'upper class', as they are self-made people, people with no titles etc. There are some exceptions - I know of a handful of familys who are rolling in it, but mostly, they are really struggling to put kids through schools, and they certainly dont drive nice cars etc. The ones that have property in places like Chelsea, Kensington etc are using their last remaining assets - selling up - and buying in cheaper areas - releasing half of their wealth to pay for things like living etc. They are being bought by Arabs, Russians and very successful entrepreneurs/bankers.

It should be entirely about meritocracy.
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Drunk Punx
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(Original post by JIRAIYA-ERO-SENNIN)
women are hypergamus creatures(they tend to marry up within society) so middle class men with professional jobs are more attractive than working class men with unskilled/semi-skilled jobs.
A doctor would be able to build a wall just as efficiently as I'd be able to diagnose an illness.

Basically, you're chatting ****.
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rei dos reis
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Eeurgh why would you want to date working class plebs?
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*Lollo*
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(Original post by bjh30)
You simply couldn't be more wrong if you tried I'm afraid. Firstly, in Britain, money has very little to do with 'class'. Secondly, its only really people of working class/upper class background that still talk about 'class' - nobody really cares (and I certainly couldnt give a c--p what 'class' people are - its about their values, them as an individual). Thirdly, it's spelt Manor not manner. Fourthly owning a 'Manor House' does not make you rich - I suppose it means your relatively well off, but most certainly not 'rich'. Fifth the aristocracy have been losing money for years, and I hardly know anyone with serious money any-more who is from such a background - I can think of a few who have inherited vast amounts of money - but overwhelmingly 'rich' people I have met at school, through business etc have been self made - the really rich actually tend to come from nothing - they are more motivated and driven. Go to a leading public school in Britain, take a look around. Even at Eton, the last remaining school where there are aristocrats still there (seriously, they hardly exist at most other top public schools), they are probably a minority now...Even a decade ago, such family's were using their last bits of wealth to pay the fees - today, they simply don't have the money. Think about it, to send your kids to Eton, say you have 2. That's £60k a year fees. Allow £5k each for yearly extras (they bill you for everything). That's £140k you need to earn, before tax, just to put children through school. Basically, you need an income of MINIMUM £400k a year for it to be seriously viable, and I would say a lot more to be comfortable. If you are not earning that money, based upon a 3% return on assets (allowing for enough to cover inflation to keep your money of circa the same value), you would need to have assets circa £13.5million. Remember that you pay 40% IHT. That means someone would have to leave you, what, circa £21million.

When you have paid IHT several times over, as people who used to own 'manor houses' would have, you ain't going to have much left. That, combined with the expense of maintaining a large houses, not working, school fees etc etc will erode your wealth very quickly. Plus there's the small fact that if you aren't smart in how you spend money, people clever than yourself will make more, find ways to get you to spend it etc etc and you will rapidly lose out (look at the drinking/gambling problems experienced by members of the aristocracy).

The upper classes generally don't have any money. In the UK, it is the 'Upper Middle Class' who have the money, and they will never be 'upper class', as they are self-made people, people with no titles etc. There are some exceptions - I know of a handful of familys who are rolling in it, but mostly, they are really struggling to put kids through schools, and they certainly dont drive nice cars etc. The ones that have property in places like Chelsea, Kensington etc are using their last remaining assets - selling up - and buying in cheaper areas - releasing half of their wealth to pay for things like living etc. They are being bought by Arabs, Russians and very successful entrepreneurs/bankers.

It should be entirely about meritocracy.
You are 100% correct. I am not English, and the belief that the English aristocracy is the wealthiest in the country, is a common misconception (due to the the fact that some other countries in Europe don't have an aristocracy, they only have a financial elite, of which they refer to as the "upper class"). I know some people from the "upper class" in England and other countries, and the only thing that really makes them stand out is that they are invited to Tatler's Black Book Party and they have cousins and friends who work in magazines and get them some publicity at vogue.co.uk.
Don't forget to mention that those who inherit Manor houses today usually don't have the income to keep them running (due to the costs of heating and reserving it - would need a gardener as well), which means they have to sell and they are not able to get a good price as there are few people in the market of those houses.

When I lived in England and was staying with a family, I was surprised by how much they discussed class. This was in Bath, I believe the family was wealthy enough, and they emphasized things such as "our boys play rugby, not football" because football is common. I jokingly added that they should sign them up for polo (in an attempt to earn the family credits via their sons). Where I am from, we don't discuss money or class, but obviously people usually end up with someone from a background not very different to their own, because you have to meet first to fall in love
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Arteta
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(Original post by bjh30)
You simply couldn't be more wrong if you tried I'm afraid. Firstly, in Britain, money has very little to do with 'class'. Secondly, its only really people of working class/upper class background that still talk about 'class' - nobody really cares (and I certainly couldnt give a c--p what 'class' people are - its about their values, them as an individual). Thirdly, it's spelt Manor not manner. Fourthly owning a 'Manor House' does not make you rich - I suppose it means your relatively well off, but most certainly not 'rich'. Fifth the aristocracy have been losing money for years, and I hardly know anyone with serious money any-more who is from such a background - I can think of a few who have inherited vast amounts of money - but overwhelmingly 'rich' people I have met at school, through business etc have been self made - the really rich actually tend to come from nothing - they are more motivated and driven. Go to a leading public school in Britain, take a look around. Even at Eton, the last remaining school where there are aristocrats still there (seriously, they hardly exist at most other top public schools), they are probably a minority now...Even a decade ago, such family's were using their last bits of wealth to pay the fees - today, they simply don't have the money. Think about it, to send your kids to Eton, say you have 2. That's £60k a year fees. Allow £5k each for yearly extras (they bill you for everything). That's £140k you need to earn, before tax, just to put children through school. Basically, you need an income of MINIMUM £400k a year for it to be seriously viable, and I would say a lot more to be comfortable. If you are not earning that money, based upon a 3% return on assets (allowing for enough to cover inflation to keep your money of circa the same value), you would need to have assets circa £13.5million. Remember that you pay 40% IHT. That means someone would have to leave you, what, circa £21million.

When you have paid IHT several times over, as people who used to own 'manor houses' would have, you ain't going to have much left. That, combined with the expense of maintaining a large houses, not working, school fees etc etc will erode your wealth very quickly. Plus there's the small fact that if you aren't smart in how you spend money, people clever than yourself will make more, find ways to get you to spend it etc etc and you will rapidly lose out (look at the drinking/gambling problems experienced by members of the aristocracy).

The upper classes generally don't have any money. In the UK, it is the 'Upper Middle Class' who have the money, and they will never be 'upper class', as they are self-made people, people with no titles etc. There are some exceptions - I know of a handful of familys who are rolling in it, but mostly, they are really struggling to put kids through schools, and they certainly dont drive nice cars etc. The ones that have property in places like Chelsea, Kensington etc are using their last remaining assets - selling up - and buying in cheaper areas - releasing half of their wealth to pay for things like living etc. They are being bought by Arabs, Russians and very successful entrepreneurs/bankers.

It should be entirely about meritocracy.
Finally, somebody with some sense.

Though I must say I don't think many aristocrats struggle too much, there's always a super rich upper-middle class man that wants a title he can't earn without marrying for one.

It's common for money and title to attract one another.

As it's been said though; who gives a **** about class anymore? It's the business league that take over these days. Though i'm glad England still cares about personal value. I hate the American idea of money ruling all.
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Chillaxer
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#47
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(Original post by JIRAIYA-ERO-SENNIN)
you misunderstand how hypergamy works; women don't have to marry up to be hypergamus, but they want to. Women prefer men who have an equal or better socio-economic status than them; this does not mean that they always marry up, because obviously they can't always do that. secondly, you're pretending as if feminism has totally changed the dynamics of relationships; it hasn't. as i've mentioned before even successful women tend to marry someone of equal socio-economic status than themselves. Hypergamy does not necessarily equal gold digging, it's not just the money that matters; a mans social status matters too, men who hold key positions of power and esteem within communities are the most desired in courtship. A man's superior social background and economic privilege adds to his sexual attractiveness; this is a matter of sexual selection.
And you didn't get my point--every woman, and not even the majority of women, can't marry up, it's a mathematical impossibility.
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Chillaxer
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(Original post by Arteta)
As it's been said though; who gives a **** about class anymore? It's the business league that take over these days. Though i'm glad England still cares about personal value. I hate the American idea of money ruling all.
Err, what? At least the Americans judge someone on what they've done this generation, they aspire to meritocracy more than us-that's a nobler ideal than looking down on people because they say 'mum' instead of 'mummy' or play football rather than rugby. At least they believe someone has to do soemthing to get any deference. Our class system makes posh people some of the most cold, self-important people alive.
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Arteta
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(Original post by Chillaxer)
And you didn't get my point--every woman, and not even the majority of women, can't marry up, it's a mathematical impossibility.
You missed his point. They aspire to marry up, or at least are more attracted to those higher in the ladder.
He knows that not all women can marry men at the top. A lot of women will aim for men better than themselves and fail.

(Original post by Chillaxer)
Err, what? At least the Americans judge someone on what they've done this generation, they aspire to meritocracy more than us-that's a nobler ideal than looking down on people because they say 'mum' instead of 'mummy' or play football rather than rugby. At least they believe someone has to do soemthing to get any deference. Our class system makes posh people some of the most cold, self-important people alive.
I see your point and obviously advantages in American society, however P. Diddy making it to 'upper class' is ridiculous. He acts like a real **** in front of cameras, like an overgrown child. He's a smart businessman and you have to respect what he's done, but in England he would never be upper class, but in America he's a hell of a lot closer.

David Beckham, in a similar situation, wouldn't have made it as far in our society if he acted in the same way as some of the American counterparts do.

Let's take another comparison; Paris Hilton is a lot more respected in America than Jordan is here.
I'm pretty sure Jordan was rejected for Coutts if I recall correctly. I imagine no such thing would happen to Paris Hilton. That's the difference between British and American society.
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JIRAIYA-ERO-SENNIN
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(Original post by Chillaxer)
And you didn't get my point--every woman, and not even the majority of women, can't marry up, it's a mathematical impossibility.
to be hypergamus you have to want to marry up; many women do marry up the social-economic scale; you don't actually have to marry up. I'm repeating this to you again. secondly, i said women tend to be attracted to and marry men who have an equal or better socio-economic status than themselves; there is nothing logistically difficult about this. If you actually understood what the word tendency means you wouldn't have a problem with this. i never said all women marry up. there many exceptions to this phenomenon but it generally holds true.
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JIRAIYA-ERO-SENNIN
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(Original post by Drunk Punx)
A doctor would be able to build a wall just as efficiently as I'd be able to diagnose an illness.

Basically, you're chatting ****.
what on earth are you talking about?
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SophiaKeuning
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(Original post by Chillaxer)
What do you think of middle(or higher)class men? Are they soft, and nancy boys, less sexually attractive/dangerous? Does your background heavily effect who you'd date, even if (or not)you're at uni etc?
I don't judge people by their class. You can get working class nancy boys and middle class beasts. And many shades in between. However, if I have a man who constantly goes on about the brilliance of David Cameron, then he's out.
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toasteh
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Not all women fancy men!
Anyway - I would be wary of dating a middle/upper class male as our backgrounds would be so different. He may look down upon my family and its background, and his parents may disapprove of the relationship. However, I don't think I ever will date a male of any class.
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chaosdestro0
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(Original post by *Lollo*)
You are 100% correct. I am not English, and the belief that the English aristocracy is the wealthiest in the country, is a common misconception (due to the the fact that some other countries in Europe don't have an aristocracy, they only have a financial elite, of which they refer to as the "upper class"). I know some people from the "upper class" in England and other countries, and the only thing that really makes them stand out is that they are invited to Tatler's Black Book Party and they have cousins and friends who work in magazines and get them some publicity at vogue.co.uk.
Don't forget to mention that those who inherit Manor houses today usually don't have the income to keep them running (due to the costs of heating and reserving it - would need a gardener as well), which means they have to sell and they are not able to get a good price as there are few people in the market of those houses.

When I lived in England and was staying with a family, I was surprised by how much they discussed class. This was in Bath, I believe the family was wealthy enough, and they emphasized things such as "our boys play rugby, not football" because football is common. I jokingly added that they should sign them up for polo (in an attempt to earn the family credits via their sons). Where I am from, we don't discuss money or class, but obviously people usually end up with someone from a background not very different to their own, because you have to meet first to fall in love
Was that an exchange by any chance?
Because I have an idea what school those children would have went to from personal experience.
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bjh30
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(Original post by *Lollo*)
You are 100% correct. I am not English, and the belief that the English aristocracy is the wealthiest in the country, is a common misconception (due to the the fact that some other countries in Europe don't have an aristocracy, they only have a financial elite, of which they refer to as the "upper class"). I know some people from the "upper class" in England and other countries, and the only thing that really makes them stand out is that they are invited to Tatler's Black Book Party and they have cousins and friends who work in magazines and get them some publicity at vogue.co.uk.
Don't forget to mention that those who inherit Manor houses today usually don't have the income to keep them running (due to the costs of heating and reserving it - would need a gardener as well), which means they have to sell and they are not able to get a good price as there are few people in the market of those houses.

When I lived in England and was staying with a family, I was surprised by how much they discussed class. This was in Bath, I believe the family was wealthy enough, and they emphasized things such as "our boys play rugby, not football" because football is common. I jokingly added that they should sign them up for polo (in an attempt to earn the family credits via their sons). Where I am from, we don't discuss money or class, but obviously people usually end up with someone from a background not very different to their own, because you have to meet first to fall in love
Haha. This post made me laugh my socks off. I know way too many people like that! They generally work in the media, and most of them do get jobs because of 'contacts' rather than capability really. They generally earn peanuts though. I have a sneaking suspicion (in fact I know) its why the media give bankers/PE/leading businesspeople such a hard time. I remember in early 2007, long before the banking crisis, when you would read complete and utter rubbish in the papers about how Private Equity was dodgy, making enormous amounts of money, didnt declare enough info, about asset stripping, cutting workers etc etc (especially in The Telegraph!)...
When a PE co tried to buy Sainsbury's, all hell broke loose. Some of the articles I read were just astounding in their ignorance. I also remember, in the months leading up to that, how all I would hear around dinner tables with such people present was moaning about "how unfair it was", how it was "grotesque that people made so much money" etc etc.
Basically, all it boiled down to was that, even the most successful 'blue bloods' were making maybe £150-200k, compared with what they saw as complete commoners on £500-600k. Basically just jealousy.
Pathetic.
On Bath, it is a beautiful city! But again, you see it there. It is mostly a Lib Dem place, and most of the people like that, believe it or not, vote Lib Dem. Generally, people in Bath are much more old money than is normal in the UK, and they don't earn anywhere near six figures, despite owning homes worth £600k plus. They have paintings/antiques/outstanding houses/flats, but it is partly 'old money'. Hence they vote Lib Dem, as they want a large state with good services, want lots of spending on health/education, dont want to pay for stuff themselves, support high taxes on what they see as 'very well paid people', want the structure to remain pretty similar to how it is.
Nothing wrong with that BTW. Its just the way it is.
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bjh30
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(Original post by Arteta)
Finally, somebody with some sense.

Though I must say I don't think many aristocrats struggle too much, there's always a super rich upper-middle class man that wants a title he can't earn without marrying for one.

It's common for money and title to attract one another.

As it's been said though; who gives a **** about class anymore? It's the business league that take over these days. Though i'm glad England still cares about personal value. I hate the American idea of money ruling all.
Thankyou. Yes, you are right at some level. Not that many people in England are so fussed about titles tho. I know there is a business, aimed at the American market, for people to sell/buy them!?!

When I said struggle, I meant relatively. No, its not like they arent going to be able to feed themselves etc. But they most certainly struggle to pay school fees, generally drive c--p 10-15 year old cars, have little money to spend etc.

I actually dated one a while back. Her family is incredibly well connected (in terms of who they are). Here's the reality. Her dad works in a shop, on the checkout, earning minimum wage. They don't own their own house, although they do live in a big rented one in the country. The house is a tip - seriously, it is literally falling apart. All 4 children went to top public schools (paid for out of a trust), but 2 at 'joke' unis, 1 probably wont make it, 1 at a decent uni. Drove cars that were 15 years old. And thats some of the highest echelons of the British establishment.
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Iorek
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(Original post by bjh30)
You simply couldn't be more wrong if you tried I'm afraid. Firstly, in Britain, money has very little to do with 'class'. Secondly, its only really people of working class/upper class background that still talk about 'class' - nobody really cares (and I certainly couldnt give a c--p what 'class' people are - its about their values, them as an individual). Thirdly, it's spelt Manor not manner. Fourthly owning a 'Manor House' does not make you rich - I suppose it means your relatively well off, but most certainly not 'rich'. Fifth the aristocracy have been losing money for years, and I hardly know anyone with serious money any-more who is from such a background - I can think of a few who have inherited vast amounts of money - but overwhelmingly 'rich' people I have met at school, through business etc have been self made - the really rich actually tend to come from nothing - they are more motivated and driven. Go to a leading public school in Britain, take a look around. Even at Eton, the last remaining school where there are aristocrats still there (seriously, they hardly exist at most other top public schools), they are probably a minority now...Even a decade ago, such family's were using their last bits of wealth to pay the fees - today, they simply don't have the money. Think about it, to send your kids to Eton, say you have 2. That's £60k a year fees. Allow £5k each for yearly extras (they bill you for everything). That's £140k you need to earn, before tax, just to put children through school. Basically, you need an income of MINIMUM £400k a year for it to be seriously viable, and I would say a lot more to be comfortable. If you are not earning that money, based upon a 3% return on assets (allowing for enough to cover inflation to keep your money of circa the same value), you would need to have assets circa £13.5million. Remember that you pay 40% IHT. That means someone would have to leave you, what, circa £21million.

When you have paid IHT several times over, as people who used to own 'manor houses' would have, you ain't going to have much left. That, combined with the expense of maintaining a large houses, not working, school fees etc etc will erode your wealth very quickly. Plus there's the small fact that if you aren't smart in how you spend money, people clever than yourself will make more, find ways to get you to spend it etc etc and you will rapidly lose out (look at the drinking/gambling problems experienced by members of the aristocracy).

The upper classes generally don't have any money. In the UK, it is the 'Upper Middle Class' who have the money, and they will never be 'upper class', as they are self-made people, people with no titles etc. There are some exceptions - I know of a handful of familys who are rolling in it, but mostly, they are really struggling to put kids through schools, and they certainly dont drive nice cars etc. The ones that have property in places like Chelsea, Kensington etc are using their last remaining assets - selling up - and buying in cheaper areas - releasing half of their wealth to pay for things like living etc. They are being bought by Arabs, Russians and very successful entrepreneurs/bankers.

It should be entirely about meritocracy.

The best post on the issue of class so far..... sums it up quite nicely.

Except there is a few slight errors.... technically speaking a lot of those manor homes can't be sold to the general public due to some silly clauses in the land title that they need to remain within their clans. Hence a lot of them eventually get leased out to be hotels or as places for wedding reception. Slowly a lot of the land that surrounds such stately homes are being subdivided and sold or leased out.

The other issue in regard to IHT, generally most of these "fortunes" are passed on prior to the death of the testator, hence it usually circumvents the IHT....

Eton and other elite private schools, these days the vast majority of kids there aren't really from upper class backgrounds, mostly upper-middle class.... Eton does not really accept students these days unless they can pay, or where they can't pay almost everything is means tested, owning a million pound home certainly would disqualify you from it even if you are A* material.

Upper class families with money? Other than the Duke of Westminsters you would be hard pressed to find any wealthy ones these days. The rest, they just bask in their past glory, most these days are quite poor, they say a fortune that is inherited rarely ever last 3 generations, many of the owners of the stately homes generally are a broke bunch these days that could barely afford to keep up with their council tax or utility bills.
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bjh30
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(Original post by Iorek)
The best post on the issue of class so far..... sums it up quite nicely.

Except there is a few slight errors.... technically speaking a lot of those manor homes can't be sold to the general public due to some silly clauses in the land title that they need to remain within their clans. Hence a lot of them eventually get leased out to be hotels or as places for wedding reception. Slowly a lot of the land that surrounds such stately homes are being subdivided and sold or leased out.

The other issue in regard to IHT, generally most of these "fortunes" are passed on prior to the death of the testator, hence it usually circumvents the IHT....

Eton and other elite private schools, these days the vast majority of kids there aren't really from upper class backgrounds, mostly upper-middle class.... Eton does not really accept students these days unless they can pay, or where they can't pay almost everything is means tested, owning a million pound home certainly would disqualify you from it even if you are A* material.

Upper class families with money? Other than the Duke of Westminsters you would be hard pressed to find any wealthy ones these days. The rest, they just bask in their past glory, most these days are quite poor, they say a fortune that is inherited rarely ever last 3 generations, many of the owners of the stately homes generally are a broke bunch these days that could barely afford to keep up with their council tax or utility bills.
Yes, like my ex who never shut up about what her family had done. I was like, "year, great, but what have you done? It is you, what you are like, your personality that I am interested in. It is you I am impressed by, not your ancestors..." She always said horrible things, made all her friends hate me (told a lot of BS), and made me feel s--t. Its actually affected me quite badly, and Ive since realized it was an abusive relationship.

I didn't know that - I know a lot of people who live in them (including, if I'm honest, my parents main home- although both grew up in council houses etc), I have heard of it in Scotland, but never outside of that?? Very interesting.

Hmmm, I'm not so sure on tax tho. Yes, of course people circumvent IHT a little bit, giving away some assets 7 years before death, but very few people give away their house - it can create all sorts of legal problems if the respective party's fall out etc. Most people are too afraid of the consequences. For the greatest part of the estate, it is in my experience, paid.

Eton is actually phenomenally hard to get into, as are most leading public schools. They don't care if you can pay, frankly they have 10 applicants for every 1 place. They want ability, and that is measured in a number of ways, not just academically. A lot of students now, at even the most elitist of public schools (Eton, Marlborough) are foreign, and they have been for many, many years at other schools like Harrow, Malvern etc.
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Drunk Punx
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(Original post by JIRAIYA-ERO-SENNIN)
what on earth are you talking about?
Your insinuation that someone's attractiveness is based upon how hard their job is.
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kristinaalovesu
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#60
Report 7 years ago
#60
It's not really a big deal to me, but sometimes I just don't like it when he talks to my family like we're poor. My mom has a decent job (a very good one) and so is my dad and my step dad. Other than that, I don't really mind because I don't want to make things a big deal just because of that, I'm trying to not mind because he barely mention that anyway.
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