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What would it take for you to "fight back"? watch

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    (Original post by TheDubs)
    Thats the thing its all subjective. But theres doubt - and in the eyes of a Board of Directors who have to appease shareholders and liability obligations for their finance's, it could go either way. An 'either way' decision on a cure to one of the biggest killers in the West isnt a fun phrase!

    Its one of a few examples, but all just highlight how capitalism has that influence on society to put money before all - and its obvious how much it effects business and individual alike even in day to day scenario's.
    It could go either way since ignoring interest and costs, the revenue from both drugs is 10000 dollars. But there's nothing stopping them from charging 10500 for the wonder drug instead, if there's a market for patients who are willing to pay extra to have their treatment finished early. (I assume you agree that corporations rationally seek profit from such things).
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    Look at the French: they strike and go mental when they try to raise the retirement age past 48 or whatever.

    Then there's that speech that started "first, they came for the......." and ends with "then they came for me but....." you know the one.

    On the other hand something my work colleague said to me a couple of months ago really struck me when we were talking about world events and issues. I'll never forget it since I'm young and carefree and have time to worry about people I don't even know.

    "I'd love to care about what happens the other side of the world. But my baby is sick, my other son had a fight at nursery today, child care costs are bankrupting me, my rent might be short this month and the missus and I hardly see each other because I work nights and she works days. And it goes on. These things take over your life and I've got enough on my plate. You care about the daily grind before you have a minute in the day to think about what's going on in Burma."

    "And stuff in the UK?"

    "I care more about that my baby boy hasn't kept down food for a week."
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    (Original post by Ciaran88)
    Well... what you've said may be right but you've got to remember, this is not the class you'd historically expect change from. This is the class you'd expect excuses and apathy and trumped up philosophies that basically amount to "I don't care what happens to people worse off than me, I'm fine".

    Major rebellion usually comes from the classes below, the middle class barely play a role in these things and are more or less swept aside by history like the inconsequential drones they are.

    There's a lot of talk about the modern middle classes being "more enlightened than ever", I was ust wondering how true that was. Probably more true than... ancient Byzantium, but in the scheme of things... I reckon they're probably as inconsequential as ever.

    The middle classes in other countries are probably more engaged and less apathetic it's true, Britain does seem particularly mindless, even more so than the US, but even in France and Spain and Greece etc. it tends to only amount to anything when that middle class way of life is actually threatened.

    Interesting point of information 'Marxist' - The majority of the UK is made up of middle-class, service sector individuals, the proletarians that your ideology proclaims will 'rise up' do not exist in this country en masse.

    I am a psychological egoist and a libertarian, when the government treats its citizens differently in the eyes of the law, then I will 'fight back'. I will not have any part to play in fighting for a sanctimonious and idealised sense of 'justice' which Marxists seem to believe constitutes freedom, but actually just functions as an artificial suppressant on material and human progress, all in the name of some arbitrary form of 'social progress'.
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    (Original post by Ocassus)
    Interesting point of information 'Marxist' - The majority of the UK is made up of middle-class, service sector individuals, the proletarians that your ideology proclaims will 'rise up' do not exist in this country en masse.
    Um.. yeah, that was my point? If ever an individual decides that collaboration with a system that exploits, often brutally, much of the rest of the world and trading his democracy for what amount of handout for the rich is a humiliating existence then perhaps he will rise up on principle but this country is apparently a bankrupt of those as it is anything financial.

    (Original post by Ocassus)
    I am a psychological egoist and a libertarian
    Ok basically a fancy way of saying "I'm a comfortable middle class Brit, my life is cushty and I really don't care about anybody else".

    Fair enough, but I wonder if you'd so easily accept your situation if you were a Colombian coca farmer or Chinese sweatshop worker etc.?

    You're also broadly neither of those things, I'd imagine. If you were to treat your friends and family in a "psychological egoist and libertarian" way then you would quite literally be fulfilling the definitions of a psychopath and a sociopath - you simply adopt these "philosophies" as a convenient way to absolve yourself of guilt, solidarity and responsibility to the wider world.

    I mean fair enough but they're just convenient excuses and have nothing to do with human nature or inevitability, in fact quite the opposite. Yes they are spineless, cowardly and pathetic but if you're happy being spineless, cowardly and pathetic and enjoying the benefits of your privilege so long as they exist, fine, but be honest about it.
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    (Original post by Ciaran88)
    Ok basically a fancy way of saying "I'm a comfortable middle class Brit, my life is cushty and I really don't care about anybody else".

    Fair enough, but I wonder if you'd so easily accept your situation if you were a Colombian coca farmer or Chinese sweatshop worker etc.?
    He'd still be a psychological egoist (because being a psychological egoist doesn't have anything to do with your class/income) but if you look at the definition of a psychological egoist and apply it to that situation (sweat shop worker), you'd realize that it means he'd simply stop being a libertarian and start being a socialist or whatever political group benefits him the most because "humans are always motivated by self-interest, even in what seem to be acts of altruism" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism).

    What's wrong with looking out for yourself?
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    (Original post by Ciaran88)
    Um.. yeah, that was my point? If ever an individual decides that collaboration with a system that exploits, often brutally, much of the rest of the world and trading his democracy for what amount of handout for the rich is a humiliating existence then perhaps he will rise up on principle but this country is apparently a bankrupt of those as it is anything financial.
    You believe you are trading your Democracy? This is rather peculiar, please explain to me in what way you are hindered from taking part in deciding who runs the country?


    Ok basically a fancy way of saying "I'm a comfortable middle class Brit, my life is cushty and I really don't care about anybody else".

    Fair enough, but I wonder if you'd so easily accept your situation if you were a Colombian coca farmer or Chinese sweatshop worker etc.?
    Any attack such as this, especially as a fellow determinist, falls flat on the ground. I could make exactly the same attack against you and your ideology because of your background, it does not make the rationale behind my ideology any weaker (Or yours any stronger) and so really is just meaningless.

    You're also broadly neither of those things, I'd imagine. If you were to treat your friends and family in a "psychological egoist and libertarian" way then you would quite literally be fulfilling the definitions of a psychopath and a sociopath - you simply adopt these "philosophies" as a convenient way to absolve yourself of guilt, solidarity and responsibility to the wider world.
    Not really, I've rationalised those philosophies based on what I believe to be the fundamental 'natural' (not societal freedoms) of humanity, and that human civilisation is a microcosm of nature itself; things must suppress other things, Socialism does not escape this either. Ones Philosophy does not change how one lives either, they are there to explain how every human being lives, not how every human being 'ought' to live. Psychological egoism holds that every human being is innately selfish, and I believe wholeheartedly in that, since even 'altruistic' acts are inspired by a form of self-motivation. If said self-motivation didn't exist, then the only form of taking without giving that would exist would be forcibly taking something without anothers consent. Being a libertarian just builds on that notion.

    I mean fair enough but they're just convenient excuses and have nothing to do with human nature or inevitability, in fact quite the opposite. Yes they are spineless, cowardly and pathetic but if you're happy being spineless, cowardly and pathetic and enjoying the benefits of your privilege so long as they exist, fine, but be honest about it.
    A very thinly veiled Ad Hominem expresses a sentiment of anger perhaps? Are we frustrated at the fact that an ideology that has failed to take off, owing to the fact that is envisages a society in which no human being can exist as a free individual and bound by the chains of communitarian, diluted, compromise.
 
 
 
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