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Glee Speculation and Discussion Thread watch

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    (Original post by Hylean)

    The issue with things like West Side Story is that every performance links into every other performance. It's like a stream, where each performance is just a cup of water taken out of it. Sometimes directors take the stream down a totally different route, and it becomes something completely different. However, they tend to be subcultural specific. The mainstream versions have to bow down to the weight of the tradition of the play and how the play is written itself. If that calls for a "masculine" character, then so be it, and to try and change that whilst remaining true to every other part of the play will cause a discord within the audience who will know the character, and thus the tradition, and will seek to rectify the "mistake". Not that it is a mistake, but you see what I mean.

    Of course it does. One of the first criteria for determining who is gay is their voice. The others are dress sense and way the person walks. I've never once said he couldn't play camp straight man, in fact I outright said he could, I just don't think he would do well as a "traditional" straight male. As the last episode shows, Kurt doesn't respond well to keeping himself hidden, he couldn't even stop himself doing jazz hands. Any straight role he plays, he will add himself to it, which is fine, but it will mean the role will become camper. This is not a bad thing, but it does mean that there are people out there who will question the character's sexuality.

    It's also quite telling that those who are "straight acting" gays are often also called "self-hating" gays in their subculture.

    Again, no one has spoken about the leading man at all, we are talking about straight roles.




    What's not to get? The character has stated he's gay, he's with Kurt, and yet I don't get that vibe with him at all. His scenes with Kurt, whilst cute, feel awkward on his part and any time he is talking about homosexuality in regards to himself, it really doesn't ring true for me. Criss isn't making it believable for me that Blaine is either gay or in love with Kurt. Again, he might be doing that intentionally because Blaine "was" confused about his sexuality, or it could be just that Criss can't pull out being gay.
    I agree with you about West side story having a tradition and also of Kurts bad choice of audition song but I don't agree with your ideas on how to recognise gay people. In fact I find this picture very relevant:
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    (Original post by e hine e)
    That picture said things better than I ever could.

    also, is it just me who laughs at that picture because the whole shoes with no socks and rolled up trousers is so Blaine now! haha
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    (Original post by e hine e)
    I was talking about the leading man, because the issue of the day is Kurt as Tony in West Side Story. I should have made that clearer.
    The issue isn't playing a leading man, it's play a male role which has traditional straight male characteristics. The fact that Tony is the lead role is besides the point.


    (Original post by e hine e)
    As for the top paragraph. I find so much wrong with that I'm not even going to begin to tear it apart.
    (Original post by museobsessed)
    I agree with you about West side story having a tradition and also of Kurts bad choice of audition song but I don't agree with your ideas on how to recognise gay people. In fact I find this picture very relevant:
    And I wear "women's" clothing and have a beard and fancy women. There are always going to be people that don't fit the "established patterns".

    Obviously you two need to realise that I was not only generalising and stereotyping, but I was doing so wilfully. I'm not enough of an idiot to think that you can recognise every single gay person in the world with those criteria, or that they are even deep, but that they are some of the main criteria, used by homosexuals no less, for judging a person's sexuality on sight and hearing, ie. without being told or seeing them with a member of the same sex.

    It's like saying you can tell a goth because they wear black and like big shoes. True for a large percentage, used by the subculture as a means of defining goth, but not true for every goth. That's what stereotyping is all about, taking a few common characteristics and amplifying them to the whole.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    And I wear "women's" clothing and have a beard and fancy women. There are always going to be people that don't fit the "established patterns".

    Obviously you two need to realise that I was not only generalising and stereotyping, but I was doing so wilfully. I'm not enough of an idiot to think that you can recognise every single gay person in the world with those criteria, or that they are even deep, but that they are some of the main criteria, used by homosexuals no less, for judging a person's sexuality on sight and hearing, ie. without being told or seeing them with a member of the same sex.

    It's like saying you can tell a goth because they wear black and like big shoes. True for a large percentage, used by the subculture as a means of defining goth, but not true for every goth. That's what stereotyping is all about, taking a few common characteristics and amplifying them to the whole.
    but sterotyping like that achieves nothing, and it means the people who do actually have a problem with gay people can use it to hurt people which is not OK. Goths get attacked for being goths, straight guys get bullied for being gay just because they're skinny and shy. Using sterotypes just makes that kind thing worse
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    (Original post by museobsessed)
    but sterotyping like that achieves nothing, and it means the people who do actually have a problem with gay people can use it to hurt people which is not OK. Goths get attacked for being goths, straight guys get bullied for being gay just because they're skinny and shy. Using sterotypes just makes that kind thing worse
    (Original post by e hine e)
    Once again I couldn't phrase it, but you managed to.

    That was my whole point originally-the public and casting directors need to get away from this stereotypical 'gay' and 'straight'. If art reflected less 'traditional' definitions of straight and gay maybe we could eradicate these stereotypes completely.

    Whether it was purposeful or not, I found it offensive and troublesome if I'm honest.
    Stereotyping is just a tool. It allows us to sort people quickly, based on ideas that the majority equate to the whole. Given that just about every scientific study done on human behaviour, medicine, etc. relies on such a method, I don't really see the issue. Do you blame the gun or the person holding it? Goths get attacked because they are goths? Not really, they get attacked because people are ignorant and make judgements based on assumptions. Same with gay acting straight people.

    I've been egged, verbally abused and attacked because I'm a cross-dresser; never been attacked for being a goth though, strangely, though I'm often dressed gothically when cross-dressing. It's not the stereotyping we should be changing, it's the negative stereotypes, which will probably never happen. We need to educate people on differences, but saying the stereotyping I just did is wrong because people use stereotypes as a grounds for hatred is silly. I realise not all gays are camp. I realise not all straights are like Puck. I'd have to, being me. Doesn't mean that assuming someone is straight or homosexual based on their voice, walk or fashion sense is wrong or even somehow prejudicial. What's wrong is judging someone solely based on that assumption.

    To be honest, art reflects less traditional images of gay than it does straight. You rarely see a camp, straight man on a TV show, or at least not a popular one. Gay images, however, are constantly combatted, with Ellen, Blaine and Karofsky, The L Word, 13 in House, though she's technically bisexual, and many others.

    And to be honest, I don't really mind if you found it troubling and offensive. That says more about your issues than it does mine.
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    Love glee so much but am I the only person who think Kurt is really over rated? Blaine, Mercedes, Rachel and Santana own him!
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Stereotyping is just a tool. It allows us to sort people quickly, based on ideas that the majority equate to the whole. Given that just about every scientific study done on human behaviour, medicine, etc. relies on such a method, I don't really see the issue. Do you blame the gun or the person holding it? Goths get attacked because they are goths? Not really, they get attacked because people are ignorant and make judgements based on assumptions. Same with gay acting straight people.

    I've been egged, verbally abused and attacked because I'm a cross-dresser; never been attacked for being a goth though, strangely, though I'm often dressed gothically when cross-dressing. It's not the stereotyping we should be changing, it's the negative stereotypes, which will probably never happen. We need to educate people on differences, but saying the stereotyping I just did is wrong because people use stereotypes as a grounds for hatred is silly. I realise not all gays are camp. I realise not all straights are like Puck. I'd have to, being me. Doesn't mean that assuming someone is straight or homosexual based on their voice, walk or fashion sense is wrong or even somehow prejudicial. What's wrong is judging someone solely based on that assumption.

    To be honest, art reflects less traditional images of gay than it does straight. You rarely see a camp, straight man on a TV show, or at least not a popular one. Gay images, however, are constantly combatted, with Ellen, Blaine and Karofsky, The L Word, 13 in House, though she's technically bisexual, and many others.

    And to be honest, I don't really mind if you found it troubling and offensive. That says more about your issues than it does mine.
    I tried to write a coherant reply to that and dramatically failed. I'm not a good writer and i've used up all my reasoning this evening
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    (Original post by e hine e)
    I don't think it does, because I've shown it to some other people and they find it troubling too. I'm sure there are things I could say that you'd find offensive, so please don't talk about my 'issues'.
    What exactly is offensive about it? Am I insinuating there's something wrong with them being gay? Am I saying it's a sin, a mental defect, an abnormality, a conscious choice to subvert the laws of nature, that it's an abomination or in any way bad? Not at all. Have I stated that they are some of the main criteria used within the gay community itself for deciding who is gay and who isn't? Yes, I have. I really do not see how that is troubling or offensive. How exactly is it wrong to stereotype as long as you realise it does not always apply and you do not form any judgements about the person based on your assumptions and stereotypes?

    Hell, I don't even see how I'm set on bringing anyone down just because I openly admit to stereotyping.

    Nonetheless, I don't mean you any harm or ill will, so I hope you find a site where you're happier.
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    (Original post by e hine e)
    Muse said exactly how stereotyping like that is dangerous and harmful. The way you worded your original comment was offensive to me, I don't want to bother typing any more because I found so many flaws in what you said I'd be here all night once I got started.

    I said the bringing people down thing wasn't simply about this discussion.
    Muse said how it can be dangerous and harmful. Again, it's harmful side effects are dependent on the ignorance of the person involved, not the stereotyping itself. Again, do you blame the gun/first or the person wielding them?

    If you find what I've said to be offensive, try to show me how I'm wrong and make me a better person. Give me the cliff notes. This is something I've discussed with people many times and most people end up agreeing, so I'm curious as to where I'm going wrong.

    And that it's not simply part of our discussion, implies that our discussion is still a part of it. I'm more interested in educating myself and defending my point than actively bringing you or anyone down. That said, I do tend to get aggressive when people avoid the issue and just say "you're wrong but I'm too lazy"; it's a flaw I have and I apologise.
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    (Original post by e hine e)
    I'm probably too lazy because I have better things to do than tear an argument apart when I know you'll come back and try to defend yourself. We have different opinions, neither of us will change them I'm guessing, and that's the last I have to say.
    Now who is stereotyping? :p:

    So, you have better things to do than try and stop something you find offensive and dangerous? Wow, "all it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing". And yes, I am now getting at you, because that kind of attitude is pretty disgusting.
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    I did not mean to start an argument!

    I think the points that were being made are

    - Tony in West Side Story, is a stereotypically straight, masculine, heterosexual man. Kurt is, unfortunately, a stereotypically camp, gay, effeminate man, and lets too much of this into his performance/is unable to adjust his voice/demeanour in order to play a traditional version of the role. As it's a school musical, we can pretty much assume they will be going to do the by the book, typical performance of the show. The fact Kurt chose a Barbara Streisand song (a typical gay icon from my POV) emphasises his campness/gayness/whatever and possibly was a poor choice for a role that is incredibly straight. Also, by choosing Romeo and Juliet to do the extract from, he tried to do a most definitely straight role (Shakespeare isn't renowned for his gay characters), leading to laughter. I'm not saying it's right, it's just what happened.
    - That is not to say gay men cannot play straight characters. There are 'camp' straight men, there are masculine gay men. Actors can do both, whether it's what they are or just the character. Kurt, unfortunately can't seem to stop his campness from sneaking in to male characters, meaning his typically masculine characters come across badly.
    - As for Hylean's comments on stereotypes, I'm inclined to agree. Whether or not we like it stereotypes exist for a reason. Kurt does fit a lot of gay stereotypes, whatever we try to do.
    - Darren Criss I find convincingly gay. Yeah.

    Sorry to cause distress.
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    (Original post by skunky x)
    *snips*
    To be honest, I'm an argumentative little ****. I admit this. It's a problem that I've done nothing to combat, though I really should. I find it hard to back down when I haven't been given a compelling argument. I apologise for creating the ill-will in here.


    (Original post by e hine e)
    It's on a thread about Glee. I didn't call it dangerous, I called it troublesome. It's troublesome to me that people have opinions like that. You know nothing about my life or what I've been going through, if you did then maybe you'd understand why I don't feel like arguing about it tonight.
    Quite true, I do know nothing about your life. Information without context is useless, really. That said, I know what I, my gay and lesbian friends and my "alternative" friends have gone through and they all still stereotype, especially about their own subcultures.

    Oh, and you quoted Muse as saying "it is dangerous and harmful".

    See, this is what I mean, I'm an argumentative ****.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    To be honest, I'm an argumentative little ****. I admit this. It's a problem that I've done nothing to combat, though I really should. I find it hard to back down when I haven't been given a compelling argument. I apologise for creating the ill-will in here.
    Doesn't matter- was just surprised to come back and find my innocent little comment had turned into a massive debate gay stereotypes!
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    (Original post by e hine e)
    Well I'm bi and I have a lot of friends in those 'cultures' and they would tend to disagree with you. I'm guessing this is where stereotyping fails, we have friends in the same social groups, yet they have different opinions.
    But that's my point. It's a tool. We blame stereotyping, but it's like treating a symptom and not the disease. Or at least, my opinion. Those on the bad side of the tool generally end up saying the tool is bad, which is a fair point, but blaming the tool is essentially using the tool.

    Saying all stereoptying is bad is stereotyping, because one treats their norm as applicable to the whole. See the irony?

    Ah, I need to go douse my head in a toilet.

    It seems she's gone and requested a ban. I am sorry for that.
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    Fix You preview and download

    Not sure what I think of it tbf
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    Counting down the days till Episode 3 - Brittana/Klaine Is anyone thinking about episode 5: first time? If it is what I think it is, then it's going to be AMAZING!
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    (Original post by Oliviaonthetrain)
    Counting down the days till Episode 3 - Brittana/Klaine Is anyone thinking about episode 5: first time? If it is what I think it is, then it's going to be AMAZING!

    Who run the worldddddddddddddddd?
    Brittanaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaa :dance:
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    **** yes! Kurt and Blaine to have issuesssssss.
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    OMG THE NEW BRITTANA STUFF ON TUMBLR.
    jgijgsjigaejoagoegjegpijgdhgdhgd hgdDEAD
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    (Original post by skunky x)
    I did not mean to start an argument!

    I think the points that were being made are

    - Tony in West Side Story, is a stereotypically straight, masculine, heterosexual man. Kurt is, unfortunately, a stereotypically camp, gay, effeminate man, and lets too much of this into his performance/is unable to adjust his voice/demeanour in order to play a traditional version of the role. As it's a school musical, we can pretty much assume they will be going to do the by the book, typical performance of the show. The fact Kurt chose a Barbara Streisand song (a typical gay icon from my POV) emphasises his campness/gayness/whatever and possibly was a poor choice for a role that is incredibly straight. Also, by choosing Romeo and Juliet to do the extract from, he tried to do a most definitely straight role (Shakespeare isn't renowned for his gay characters), leading to laughter. I'm not saying it's right, it's just what happened.
    - That is not to say gay men cannot play straight characters. There are 'camp' straight men, there are masculine gay men. Actors can do both, whether it's what they are or just the character. Kurt, unfortunately can't seem to stop his campness from sneaking in to male characters, meaning his typically masculine characters come across badly.
    - As for Hylean's comments on stereotypes, I'm inclined to agree. Whether or not we like it stereotypes exist for a reason. Kurt does fit a lot of gay stereotypes, whatever we try to do.
    - Darren Criss I find convincingly gay. Yeah.

    Sorry to cause distress.
    BiB: I disagree slightly. I honestly don't think we're able to judge whether Kurt would be a good Tony. You can't really say that he's unable to adjust his voice to play Tony because we haven't seen him doing a song from West Side Story or acting out a scene opposite Maria. I agree with you, in choosing I'm the Greatest Star he didn't show that he could play a convincing Tony, only that he could play Kurt and that he had an incredible range. When you're auditioning for a musical, you're usually given a list of songs to choose from depending on the character you're auditioning for or told to sing a song from that era. Kurt chose entirely the wrong audition song, so while that may mean that he did emphasise his 'campness' (though that's more other people bringing their own interpretations to that- yeah, Barbra is a gay icon but I don't think it makes you especially camp to sing her songs), I don't believe it means he wouldn't be a good Tony. I think he'd do an amazing job singing Maria for example, and people forget that as a countertenor, he has an incredibly wide range. It doesn't mean he can just sing high songs and female vocals. It's in a way Kurt's fault because he believed that showcasing his talent would be enough but as an actor, talent isn't enough. You need malleability. Nobody can say that he can't do that. I've said this before. A fairer way of knowing whether Kurt would be a good Tony would be to have let him sing the same audition song as Blaine or a song from the musical. Because otherwise, it's impossible to tell. His being effeminate has nothing to do with anything. It's his need to show everyone how talented he is that destroyed his chances. As Kurt believes that singing songs sung by females is his *thing*, he stuck to what he believed he did best and went all out, hoping that would get him cast.

    To the audience, and certainly to the three judges, it's obvious that all he's done is excluded himself. That has nothing to do with being 'camp' or 'effeminate' or his being gay or anything, it's to do with his audition showing his suitablity for the role. They're seperate issues. Though I think Glee wanted us to see what you're saying, that he's being 'typecast' in some way but I don't think that's correct because all he's done is reinforced the view certain characters and audience members have of him. You'd only know if his 'campness' was affecting his Tony if he'd actually done a Tony song. The Greatest Star was Kurt being Kurt. If I was on the panel, I would have told him to reaudition with a more suitable song at best or at worst, completely crossed him off the list. Not because of his sexuality or his characteristics but because it was, frankly, a ridiculous audition song that didn't take into account the show, Tony's voice type, or the role. Just as if someone was auditioning for Follies and sang a song from Cabaret, I'd be like :lolwut:. No-one would be able to see Kurt as Tony after that audition but that doesn't mean he couldn't do it. Kurt had attempted to be more, as you put it, 'masculine' by swinging on the scaffolds and using sai swords. They take great strength and physicality- but he was using it in the incorrect way for the role. Tony needs to be physical in a believable-as-an-ex-gang-leader-way. Kurt could potentially do that if he learned to harness his skills. Yes, looking a certain way matters in musical theatre. If you're tall and have sharp features, you're not really going to get cast as an ingenue. But I saw no reason Kurt couldn't potentially play Tony. He's not not masculine! I know that's a double negative but I don't care. He's very masculine by defination, he's a man. You don't stop being a man if you're effeminate (and I wish I knew why people think Kurt is effeminate because I don't see it. Moisturising and liking certain songs and having a high voice and doing certain things isn't effeminate to me. If that's the case, I must be really masculine! ) It's just Blaine sang the right song, has a lovely tenor and has the earnestness, subtle aggression and physicality of a Tony. You could imagine him in a gang fight. You don't really have to think very hard to want to cast him as Tony. Kurt made it extra difficult for himself really and I think that's why I'm so confused about what the writers want us to think? Is he subject to typecasting because people can't see past his... to quote Britt 'unicorn'?

    On an interesting side note: Funnily enough, the film Tony looks a lot like Blaine, down to the slicked back curls.
    Wheras the original Broadway Tony reminds me of Kurt in terms of physicality.
    It's all about an actor's intrepretation of a role and I think Kurt could be a really good Tony. Kurt's only a teenager and he has time to develop and he's learning that it's not enough to just be himself as wonderful as he is.

    And for a real life Broadway star who reminds me of Kurt. Aaron Tveit. I actually have no idea if he's gay or not and I don't really care.
    He has a higher than average singing voice for a male and yet, he's convincing in every role I've seen him in *cough* on a video sharing site *cough*.

    I'll stop now. Like I said, I don't disagree with you entirely. It's just semantics.
 
 
 
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