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The truth behind the new jobless generation watch

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    (Original post by Erich Hartmann)
    Advancement must be through innovations no? Suppose something must be wrong then with so many degrees and yet :-

    You need innovative thinking before you can put anything into practice.
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    (Original post by Phantom_X)
    wrong, universities were supposed to be academic institutions that were more focused on producing ideas, innovation and solutions to all areas of life, from government to the private sector. It was never supposed to be a mechanism or a component in an extremely dogmatic machine churning out labour to work in yet more institutions based within the confines of process and delivery. This is the narrative that seems to be peddled by much of the mainstream media who see no value in academic insitutions or academia itself for that matter.
    Unless you have a PhD this doesn't happen.
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    (Original post by freedom1)
    Yes they could. Someone who spends 5 hours a day doing physics instead of watching TV and playing games from ages 12-18, will easily surpass the knowledge of that of a simple 3 year degree.
    LOL what? Wow.. what a complete failure of logic.

    Let's see. 3 years of work, purely focused on one topic. Compared to two, at most, years of half-hearted research because of other priorities. Including better resources for information at University, better teaching methods and better environment.

    Care to find me proof that it is easy to get the knowledge of a full time 3 year degree in the space of a part time work for less than 2 years?

    You are making no sense, give up now.
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    (Original post by Tommyjw)
    LOL what? Wow.. what a complete failure of logic.

    Let's see. 3 years of work, purely focused on one topic. Compared to two, at most, years of half-hearted research because of other priorities. Including better resources for information at University, better teaching methods and better environment.

    Care to find me proof that it is easy to get the knowledge of a full time 3 year degree in the space of a part time work for less than 2 years?

    You are making no sense, give up now.
    2 years? why 2 years?
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    (Original post by freedom1)
    2 years? why 2 years?
    Why not? Otherwise you are going oin completel unrealistic hypothetical situation that a GCSE student has the capacity to further knowledge of an area in to degree level, which is nonsense for 99% of the population.
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    Sure, it would be easier for some businesses if we had an education system that served simply as a training centre for people who were conditioned to work extremely long hours for extremely low pay from the age of 14. Fortunately for society, education is considered to have a wider purpose than that.
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    (Original post by Tommyjw)
    Why not? Otherwise you are going oin completel unrealistic hypothetical situation that a GCSE student has the capacity to further knowledge of an area in to degree level, which is nonsense for 99% of the population.
    So you are saying learning something without the help of a university is absurd? If you aren't capable of learning without university ironically you don't belong at university.
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    (Original post by freedom1)
    So you are saying learning something without the help of a university is absurd? If you aren't capable of learning without university ironically you don't belong at university.
    Nope, never said that at all, in any way shape or form. But thanks for completely making up a point.
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    (Original post by Kolya)
    Sure, it would be easier for some businesses if we had an education system that served simply as a training centre for people who were conditioned to work extremely long hours for extremely low pay from the age of 14. Fortunately for society, education is considered to have a wider purpose than that.
    High end jobs arguably require basic employability and literacy & numeracy skills just as much as a burger flipper I believe.

    Having encountered the odd graduate or six many lack them. The education system has to take some responsibility for that. I appreciate that is not a direct counter to the point you were making but relevant none the less.
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    (Original post by Tommyjw)
    Nope, never said that at all, in any way shape or form. But thanks for completely making up a point.
    If everyone chose degrees based on what they enjoy most over 50% of graduates would have degrees in playing Call of Duty and watching X factor.
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    (Original post by freedom1)
    If everyone chose degrees based on what they enjoy most over 50% of graduates would have degrees in playing Call of Duty and watching X factor.
    Meh, more rambling. Just stop.
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    I agree with others, the author has a very blatant agenda they wanted to push, and would simply find the people who agree with them as supposed proof.

    Transferring skills from uni to job has always been a problem. Companies want to save as much money as possible, so any money spent on training is seen as waste, and so the only logical thing they can do is take out their frustrations on universities for not doing their training for them. Expecting everyone to have specialist skills for their potential job is all well and good (because everyone obviously can see the future as to what exactly what job they'll get in 3 years time), but can you really say that and then go on to blame students who can't find jobs because their courses are too specific? E.g. speech therapists are having a hard time finding jobs with all the cutbacks, but can't really transfer their skills to other jobs. Choosing a course is an exercise in risk management, balancing between choosing a course with specific skills to improve chances of getting a job, but not so specific that they put all their eggs in one basket.

    The only way the companies can get what they want so badly would be for them to interview kids before they start university and then sponsor them throughout, so that they have a guaranteed job at the end and know exactly what skills to pick up during uni. Until then, they'll carry on blaming everyone else for not saving them money.


    As for the immigration issue, that's the usual right wing rubbish. Should we ban foreigners from having jobs until our unemployment rate is 0? Fair enough, a lot of graduates turn their noses at menial jobs which could lead into better roles, but companies are partly to blame since many do not outline career progression in job descriptions. The companies may say "this job has plenty of opportunity for rising quickly through the ranks, but graduates believe it's below them" to journalists, but if they don't say that in job descriptions then it just looks like another dead-end job to the graduates. To many graduates the expectation that they should take menial jobs is nothing more than a Grapes of Wrath scenario, with the business owners using the high demand for jobs as an excuse to take advantage. And then of course if they take a menial job there are plenty of people who complain that people without degrees can't even get menial jobs because the graduates are taking them all.

    When it comes down to it, there are not enough jobs and too many unemployed. Conservatives will ALWAYS advertise that as "There are plenty of jobs out there, but you're just not good enough for them" since it takes the blame away from themselves and businesses and puts it squarely on the individual.
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    (Original post by Tommyjw)
    Meh, more rambling. Just stop.
    The purpose of education is not to have fun it is simple as that.
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    (Original post by freedom1)
    The purpose of education is not to have fun it is simple as that.
    Yep, and i've not suggested otherwise. Now, stop with the rambling.
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    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    " Of the 29.17 million people aged 16 and over in employment in the United Kingdom, 2.56 million are non-British nationals. At the same time there are 2.62 million in this country unemployed"

    And this is exactly why I feel politicians should be held accountable for the current unemployment crisis. It's criminal allowing such high immigration to take over jobs from perfectly capable British nationals. If those 2.56 million had not entered the country we'd have a lovely unemployment figure of around 0.06 million, and the billions saved from welfare could be used to lower taxes or improve public services.
    That's ridiculous. The problem isn't that other workers from abroad are taking 'British jobs,' it is simply that a lot of people in Britain aren't the best suited for the job. There may be varying reasons for that; whether it's laziness, as our welfare system is so good that you get paid enough to survive without working so why bother? A lack of a working ethos that is cultivated in other countries, poor punctuality, lack of effor, a sense of entitlement etc. I've heard many reasons but the fact is, employers will take the one who is best suited to the job. It goes back to the old 'may the better man win.' We need to tackle the root problem of our workers not being the best for the job, not that there are a lot of immigrants working in this country.

    I'm happy with having to compete with other workers on an international level and as long as I can immigrate to their country to work, should I choose to do so, I have no issue with them coming to my country to work.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    TBH I thought that article was very poorly written. It is obviously written by somebody with a particular agenda to further and is quoting a lot of anecdotal evidence. The first part of the article is based around ONE example of an assessment centre for a sales job and some poorly performing graduate.

    Big deal this happens all the time. You could write an article saying there was a job somewhere and an engineering grad from Imperial turned up for interview and stuttered. Hence Imperial is crap and churns out unemployable grads.
    The article also includes a survey of businesses etc. Of course it has an agenda - every journo has a point of view - but you can't call it "anecdotal" because it uses one evocative image - again, as journalistic articles do all the time - to illustrate a wider point backed up by statistics.

    Personally I think there are two problems here. One is the valid issue highlighted in the original post, that graduates often do not have the necessary skills for employment, but the second is a general paucity of jobs at the moment.
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    (Original post by Espa)
    That's ridiculous. The problem isn't that other workers from abroad are taking 'British jobs,' it is simply that a lot of people in Britain aren't the best suited for the job. There may be varying reasons for that; whether it's laziness, as our welfare system is so good that you get paid enough to survive without working so why bother? A lack of a working ethos that is cultivated in other countries, poor punctuality, lack of effor, a sense of entitlement etc. I've heard many reasons but the fact is, employers will take the one who is best suited to the job. It goes back to the old 'may the better man win.' We need to tackle the root problem of our workers not being the best for the job, not that there are a lot of immigrants working in this country.
    Yes we do need to tackle the root of the problem. But are you honestly sure that all those jobs could not be done as well, or almost as well, by a British national? Are you telling me that there are over 2.5MILLION people and virtually none of them can take over an immigrant's job and do well at it?

    I believe that a slightly less efficient workforce would be more than compensated for, by a very long way, by the advantages of taking hundreds of thousands off benefits, reducing pressures on housing, and so on and so on.

    I'm happy with having to compete with other workers on an international level and as long as I can immigrate to their country to work, should I choose to do so, I have no issue with them coming to my country to work.
    That's all well and good, but rather irrelevant. Your opinion is countered by that of a significant majority of the British population who believe immigration should be reduced. Frankly I don't care how other nations set their immigration policies, I am certain that ours is harming Britain - especially the low-skilled.
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    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    " Of the 29.17 million people aged 16 and over in employment in the United Kingdom, 2.56 million are non-British nationals. At the same time there are 2.62 million in this country unemployed"

    And this is exactly why I feel politicians should be held accountable for the current unemployment crisis. It's criminal allowing such high immigration to take over jobs from perfectly capable British nationals. If those 2.56 million had not entered the country we'd have a lovely unemployment figure of around 0.06 million, and the billions saved from welfare could be used to lower taxes or improve public services.
    Never works that way. You are assuming all the jobs done by foreigners can also be done by British people. You have to consider what jobs they are doing which could be jobs that need specific qualifications and experience like university lecturer or specialist engineer.

    Even if there was a perfect match of British people to British jobs, not everyone will want or could relocate to these jobs.

    If you forced key foreign workers out of Britain, they might decide to take their money and factories to other countries so Britain will suffer de-investment on a large scale.

    Lastly, if Britain repatriated all these foreigners including EU nationals, no doubt the other EU countries would do the same to the million or so Britons working in the EU and they will have to find jobs when they return to the UK so you'll need to find an additional 1 million jobs for these newly returned people.
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    (Original post by michael321)
    Personally I think there are two problems here. One is the valid issue highlighted in the original post, that graduates often do not have the necessary skills for employment, but the second is a general paucity of jobs at the moment.
    Well its the second point basically.

    On the first point if graduates did not have the necessary skills for employment, then how come graduate employers were happy to employ them right till 2008/09? Before that if you got a 2:1 you would probably get a grad job starting on £25k and you'd be on £35-40k by now.

    How come its only the most recent generation of graduates that lack skills and are unemployable?
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    Well its the second point basically.

    On the first point if graduates did not have the necessary skills for employment, then how come graduate employers were happy to employ them right till 2008/09? Before that if you got a 2:1 you would probably get a grad job starting on £25k and you'd be on £35-40k by now.

    How come its only the most recent generation of graduates that lack skills and are unemployable?
    I disagree. If you got a 2:1 in 2008 you would certainly not have been guaranteed a good job on £35,000-40,000. Statistics, by their very nature, generalise. I do not doubt that there are a great many worthwhile degrees in this country, but there is also an increasing number of useless ones. The average is of course pulled up by intelligent people doing good courses and doing well in the world of work; but this average does not account for those who do "Surf science" at Plymouth or indeed a degree in a borderline acceptable subject at a fairly good university.
 
 
 
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