Discovering Higher and Degree Apprenticeships with UWE Bristol, get free advice >>

Clever people in the navy/armed forces...... is it really worth it??

Scroll to see replies

DPM

I'm still on Mod1, seems to be taking forever. 3 weekends left until I start Mod2.

That's w@nk, are you not kind of wishing you just went in as a soldier now?

btw I'm going to start a general gossip chat thread to avoid hijacking all the others, BH feel free to delete/move across this chatter :smile:

Reply 41

threeportdrift

Careers Forum Helper

Rotters

I am afraid it is a fundamental error to think that the RAF treats each person on their merits. Like all commercial employers processing X,000 applicants per year, they have to work to a set of general outline assumptions and on the basis of past experience. Only when you have proved your potential to them can they afford to focus on you as an individual. Obviously, as you manage to clear the hurdles of the initial application, basic training and advanced training, the strength of the individual to negotiate these deals increases, because their value to the Service has increased. Sadly at OASC, your bargaining strength is pretty paltry, therefore those that meet the sausage machine standards are most likely to be taken on as representing the minimum training risk.

But remember, the RAF does have a quota for graduates/non-graduates - is it 70/30 now? not sure, I last dealt with it about 4 years ago. But they do not exclude the non-graduate entrant, far from it, they appreciate the diversity that the non-graduate experience and talents can bring. However, the training stats speak for themselves, graduates have a better pass rate. What the stats don't show is what the various success rates for non-graduates is, based on their academic or real world experience, probably because it would be very difficult to ennumerate.

There are two reasons for paying someone with a degree in Golf Course Management more as a graduate entrant to the RAF. Firstly, statistically that person is less of a training risk than a non gradute (see my comments before re academic attainment - the subject is irrelevant, it's the learning skills that matter)- the RAF are paying for the better candidate - simple economics.

Second reason, again simple market economics, graduates expect a certain level of income (see the OPs comments), while the RAF can try to wrinkle a little flexibility out of those that join for the vocation etc, it has to attract the quality of candidate that it wants, that means offering graduates a market salary. The RAF can get away with paying non-graduates less because these people do not have the claim to the 'graduate salary' (or if they think they do - tough!) but they still (on the basis of selection) have the vocation, desire etc that make them worth the training risk.

It's economics - managing the supply and demand, and the training risk. Of course there are always going to people that defy the stats, and if you have a good recruitment system, as the RAF has, then these people will be spotted and will reach their potential. However, for the majority, it's a procedure, a system and the individual has no merit in that system until they have proved their value.

Reply 42

CKinnerley

To illustrate the point of job satisfaction vs. income from a slightly different perspective, I'm going for Weapons Tech and I'll be on what? About 15 000 per annum after trade training, half what all the average officer applicant is looking at, but I get to work with some of the most advanced aerial weapons systems in the world and service small arms for hours on end, and get paid to do it? I'd happily pay the RAF for the privilege!

I've had my fill of full time education for now, time to go out and do something really challenging and practical with my life.

Reply 43

djmm

threeportdrift

I don't think there was a limit set on when an RO could tick the 'suitable for commissioning box'.

That box is ticked upon joining as an airman. Even while going through Halton. I had it on my RORRS-3 while at Raliegh.

threeportdrift

Furthermore, by going for a very early commission from the ranks, there could always be the inferrence that either the airman, or the Service, made a mistake in judging their initial aptitude and potential.

Same could be said about branch transfers. But people are still allowed to stick in a I wish I'd joined as a Pilot form at an early stage in their chosen job.

threeportdrift

Just playing devils advocate here, but if the airman made the misjudgement about their own potential - what does that say about their Flt Cdr potential, self awareness etc. If the Service made a mistake....well you know finding a confession like that is hen's teeth territory!

Suppose they have grown in character, strength, personality since joining - compared to not being able to make the grade at a younger age? Perhaps, they knew they would not meet the set criteria, so opted to wait until in service and try again later?

Steve Stifler

I might as well be doing it for free with Glasgow at the desk!

Lol, they are crap! I had to wait until about the end of Auguest to get my final pay, after leaving on the 23rd June...

CKinnerley

I get to... service small arms for hours on end...

And that sounds appealing? You'll soon get sick of the sight of them. :smile:

Reply 44

Steve Stifler

djmarkmclachlan

Lol, they are crap! I had to wait until about the end of Auguest to get my final pay, after leaving on the 23rd June...

Dude, I've been underpaid by a 3 figure sum this month lol

Reply 45

djmm

Haha. I looked for the offices when I got home, but they are pretty damn ellusive!

Reply 46

CKinnerley

djmarkmclachlan

And that sounds appealing? You'll soon get sick of the sight of them. :smile:

Maybe, then again I spend a relatively large amount of time looking at them already (pictures atleast), so maybe not :p:

Reply 47

Hashshashin

DPM

(By the way, what is all this "not doing it for the money" lark, would you still join if they didn't pay you?)

Yes, I honestly would. In fact, when I first decided I wanted to go into the forces (about 3 years ago), I was actually naive enough to think that members of the forces weren't paid at all. Stupid I know, but true.

Reply 48

Shéamais

Hashshashin

Yes, I honestly would. In fact,

Well would you if you had a family to support, and other stuff financial to worry about like a student loan?

Reply 49

Hashshashin

DPM

Well would you if you had a family to support, and other stuff financial to worry about like a student loan?

No, but in that situation I probably wouldn't start a family or go to university. But the point is that no matter how low wages are in the forces (I think they're rather good, myself) they'll always be a bonus. My decision to join up has not been affacted in any way by the level of pay. :smile:

Reply 50

djmm

Why gain a degree before you join as an Officer then?

Reply 51

threeportdrift

Careers Forum Helper

djmarkmclachlan

Why gain a degree before you join as an Officer then?

a) Because getting a degree can be a valuable/fun life experience. Bags of opportunities to try new things, manage your own life, meet new people, live in a different environment to the one you grew up in etc. In fact, if you take the right advantages from it, University and the opportunities it provides could be seen as 'Forces Lite'

b) Because your stats are better vis a vis success at selection and during training than Direct Entrants.

c) Because when you saunter into the Medical* and are told the shattering news that you are permanently unfit for service, it doesn't take you 3 years to reset your life for a different professional career.

*or get binned from IOT, EFT, BFT, AFT, TWU, OCU or anytime in the first 3 years of your flying career. You could easily be binned by the system as late as your mid 20s, losing a salary of £25-30K and find yourself with only A levels to fall back on - not good news :frown:

Reply 52

Hashshashin

threeportdrift

That's the one. Especially the bit about 'life experience' - I just don't believe I'll be mature enough or ready to lead men in two years time. Whether I ever will be is another question altogether! :biggrin:

Plus I'm hoping to join the RMR next year, and would carry that on through uni, so I wouldn't be missing out on the fun! :wink:

Reply 53

Wzz

Rotters

Why, if I have a degree in Golf Course Management or Surfing, yes they are "real" courses, get more money than someone who actually has some experience of the wider world?

So degree's are the only way of proving intelligence?

I stand by the point that if you've chosen to go to uni and get a degree fine, that was your choice not the RAF's. Why should they pay you more? You haven't proven anything other than you can waste 3-4 years of your life by getting a degree which won't be relvant to your job anyway!

You need to start listening to 3PD's posts. A person with a degree has stuck with a 3 or 4 year long phase of training, proven they can work off their own back, and shown a minimum level of intelligence. EXACTLY what makes a successful pilot. A degree proves you have a "trainable mind."

Look at the number of graduates on an average BFJT course vs DEs. Then look at the same stats on an ME course. There are some successful DEs, but there are many more successful grads through training.

All of 3PD's posts are spot on. There's a big risk you'll find yourself as a DE being jobless at 23 or 24 because you've been thrown off an OCU and had your wings taken back. What're you going to do then?

Any sort of bitterness towards graduates who will be paid more than you and probably be more successful than you through training should be hidden away now :wink:

Reply 54

djmm

Wzz

Any sort of bitterness towards graduates who will be paid more than you and probably be more successful than you through training should be hidden away now :wink:

How do you justify that? Because someone goes to Uni that means they will be 'probably' be more successful? I don't see how that can be; you've either got it or you've not. So how does gaining a degree give someone the edge over someone without, with regards to being capable of flying better?

Agreed on the bitterness, it's not needed in the forces - especially within the Officer ranks.

Reply 55

Shéamais

djmarkmclachlan

You like arguing don't you? You were right about public schools, but this time I think you're arguing a losing battle.

Reply 56

djmm

Love it.

Glad you agree, most didn't. I think they just got bored of arguing and left it. :wink:

I'm not really up for an argument here, but really... gaining a degree in Golf Course Management... will make you a better pilot? Damn, wish I'd went to Uni instead of joining the Navy. :p:

Reply 57

GR4pilot

No but proving that you can stick a subject as mundane as Golf course management shows that you've got what it takes to keep going at various phases of training. As wzz has said before at many points in his training he sat in a lecture theatre or classroom wondering how what it would achive but he kept going - I've had the same thing with my degree (agricultural changes in Europe over the C17 - C19th woo!). + you have the study skills and as has been repeatedly mentioned, grads have a statistically lower training risk - which is what the RAF are paying for.

Reply 58

djmm

Ahh, I see what you mean. :smile:

Reply 59

GR29KHS

I wanted to join the forces when I was 17, went through a few informal interviews at the AFCO etc and then it hit me that I just wasn't ready to take on such a big commitment. Some people can do it at that age, but a hell of a lot can't.

Taking 3 years out to do a degree and 2 years to see what life is like working on Civvy street gave me enough experience to make an informed decision.

Basically, in my humble opinion, Civvy life s*cks! I don't feel like I really belong anywhere - whereas when I was at boarding school/Dad was in the RAF there was always a constant in my life no matter how many times we were posted. But it took a few years of not being a part of something to realise what I was missing, at least with Uni I wasn't wasting those few years (and I had a couple of jobs too), now I'm going in at a higher pay rate and with quicker promotion prospects than if I'd just gotten a job for a few years.

A degree is definitely worth doing before joining.