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what would happen if people had a white or caucasian society at a university watch

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    (Original post by ouijaouija)
    firstly, do people feel there is a need for one? There never is one because no1 wants one.
    That's because a large amount of whites have been made to feel guilty about being proud to be white. People don't start such clubs because they are scared of sensitivity issues.

    If you went up to a random black person on the streets and asked him/her if they were proud to be black, they would answer with 'yes'; if you did the same to a random white person, they would say 'no'.
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    I would like to make a point that in my Uni there are tonnes of White Students in the Indian society and the Bollywood dance society. I don't know why anyone would want to join the latter, however.
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    Hands up anyone who has ever actually wanted to set up a white society at their uni, and not just to get one over the blacks/ to get a kick out of identifying a possible inconsistency in the university's policies? Or maybe, you really don't give a s***?
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    (Original post by cheesecakebobby)
    Hands up anyone who has ever actually wanted to set up a white society at their uni, and not just to get one over the blacks/ to get a kick out of identifying a possible inconsistency in the university's policies? Or maybe, you really don't give a s***?
    I think the debate is trying to highlight the double standards... its not a petition to form a white society.
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    Well, we don't know if there are double standards because anecdotes of students even trying to set up such a society are far between. Not only have people mentioned reasons for why a distinction could be made to justify the existence of Carribean societies and so on (on 'minority' grounds, or on grounds of actual activities particular to that culture), but I think that a university would have a case for not allowing a society to be set up for certain reasons. What I mean by this is that it is one thing to suggest a society for postive aims and another to suggest a society to merely make a political point.
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    (Original post by cheesecakebobby)
    Well, we don't know if there are double standards because anecdotes of students even trying to set up such a society are far between. Not only have people mentioned reasons for why a distinction could be made to justify the existence of Carribean societies and so on (on 'minority' grounds, or on grounds of actual activities particular to that culture), but I think that a university would have a case for not allowing a society to be set up for certain reasons. What I mean by this is that it is one thing to suggest a society for postive aims and another to suggest a society to merely make a political point.
    Indeed.

    Anyway, ethnic minority groups are brought together by the fact that they have a shared cultural/national family heritage that is not native to England. It is not the mainstream way of life, it's a way of bringing together people with that background, not simply to bring together people of the same skin colour.

    THAT is why it would not apply to a 'white' society. We live in a country where white is the majority race, there is no need for a society to cater to white cultural history. If one was to set up, say, a British culture society, open to members of any race, which would be the same principle as the ethnic minority societites, that would be fine. As it is, a 'white' society whose only principle was to unite people of the same skin colour for the sake of it, would just be discriminatory.
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    (Original post by Atomik)
    So, considering what you said, would you condemn or condone a white society which celebrates white culture? A society which supposedly isn't about skin colour?
    I would condone it, as long as it was open to everyone who wanted to celebrate the culture. It shouldn't be called "white"- British would be fine. I would love to join a society that celebrated British culture- just to find out what precisely it was!

    I would condemn it if it was only open to people with white skin. And your use of "white" implies that, whereas the use of "black" doesnt. Black is an acceptable term used to describe afro-caribbean/african culture. White at the present time literally means white skin. Well, thats how i see it anyway.
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    (Original post by Laika)
    Indeed.

    Anyway, ethnic minority groups are brought together by the fact that they have a shared cultural/national family heritage that is not native to England. It is not the mainstream way of life, it's a way of bringing together people with that background, not simply to bring together people of the same skin colour.

    THAT is why it would not apply to a 'white' society. We live in a country where white is the majority race, there is no need for a society to cater to white cultural history. If one was to set up, say, a British culture society, open to members of any race, which would be the same principle as the ethnic minority societites, that would be fine. As it is, a 'white' society whose only principle was to unite people of the same skin colour for the sake of it, would just be discriminatory.
    You got there a split second before me!
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    (Original post by Laika)
    Anyway, ethnic minority groups are brought together by the fact that they have a shared cultural/national family heritage that is not native to England. It is not the mainstream way of life, it's a way of bringing together people with that background, not simply to bring together people of the same skin colour.
    Ill repost this:

    How about a whole university?

    http://www.howard.edu/

    How about a Scholarship only for blacks?

    http://www.uncf.org/

    (Original post by Laika)
    THAT is why it would not apply to a 'white' society. We live in a country where white is the majority race, there is no need for a society to cater to white cultural history.
    Ill repost again:

    The fact that whites may be in the majority in no way changes the fact that it is a double standard.

    Further, in many parts of the country whites are NOT the majority. At some universities like the LSE for instance. To claim that the acceptability of such a society lives and dies on whether or not you are more numerous is rather inexplicable. One has nothing to do with the other.

    Of course, as a minority there may be a greater DESIRE for it, but there is nothing more or less objectionable about having such societies or groupings simply because you are a majority.

    In the West Indies for instance, where whites are very much in the minority, the notion of all white clubs, or groups, or organizations would seem absurd. People would object - DESPITE WHITES BEING A MINORITY. However there are many Indo and Afro-Caribbean societies etc. No one bats an eyelid.

    I don’t see how anyone could possibly argue that that isn’t a double standard.


    (Original post by Laika)
    If one was to set up, say, a British culture society, open to members of any race, which would be the same principle as the ethnic minority societites, that would be fine. As it is, a 'white' society whose only principle was to unite people of the same skin colour for the sake of it, would just be discriminatory.
    So you object to my above links? A Black university and a BLACK scholarship fund?
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Ill repost this:

    How about a whole university?

    http://www.howard.edu/

    How about a Scholarship only for blacks?

    http://www.uncf.org/



    Ill repost again:

    The fact that whites may be in the majority in no way changes the fact that it is a double standard.

    Further, in many parts of the country whites are NOT the majority. At some universities like the LSE for instance. To claim that the acceptability of such a society lives and dies on whether or not you are more numerous is rather inexplicable. One has nothing to do with the other.

    Of course, as a minority there may be a greater DESIRE for it, but there is nothing more or less objectionable about having such societies or groupings simply because you are a majority.

    In the West Indies for instance, where whites are very much in the minority, the notion of all white clubs, or groups, or organizations would seem absurd. People would object - DESPITE WHITES BEING A MINORITY. However there are many Indo and Afro-Caribbean societies etc. No one bats an eyelid.

    I don’t see how anyone could possibly argue that that isn’t a double standard.




    So you object to my above links? A Black university and a BLACK scholarship fund?
    Lawz, those things could be argued, but they don't relate to clubs and societies. Lets not talk about every last form of perceived double-standards, to try to make a point about whether there should be societies for white-skinned people only.

    Yes, there are scholarships for black kids. Cant you think why at all hey? Social deprivation? Self interests of those setting up the programmes? If a black philanthropist wantd more black people to go to uni, and offered to give black boys money to pay for it, thats fine! People can do as they wish with money. Are there actual government charities fo black people specifically? Then i'd agree to an extent that it wasnt entirely fair.

    There is a scholarshop near where i live that a woman set up, for all kids who live in Baginton. If you lie in Baginton, this fund will pay for your childs tuition fees. Again, thats fine.
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    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    Yes, there are scholarships for black kids. Cant you think why at all hey? Social deprivation? Self interests of those setting up the programmes? If a black philanthropist wantd more black people to go to uni, and offered to give black boys money to pay for it, thats fine!
    Social deprivation is not the province of blacks. The people in the US with the lowest annual income are white.

    Regardless - you think its ok for a black man with money to make a conscious decision to help kids only so long as they are black???

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    People can do as they wish with money. Are there actual government charities fo black people specifically? Then i'd agree to an extent that it wasnt entirely fair.
    So you would be ok with a white person setting up a scholarship for poor WHITE kids only to the exclusion of all blacks?
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Ill repost this:

    How about a whole university?

    http://www.howard.edu/

    How about a Scholarship only for blacks?

    http://www.uncf.org/
    Ridiculous example. Howard University was a part of the civil rights movement IN AMERICA, where black people couldn't get equal access to education because schools were segregated. Furthermore I don't see anything to indicate it is not open to all races, in fact according to Wikipedia, it has always been since it's establishment. Please don not use American examples, particularly in this case where you're wrong anyway, because the race situation is historically different over there as blacks haven't had equal access to education. It's totally off the original example of University Societies and is merely you scrabbling to provide evidence of double standards.

    As for the UNCF, it's obviously aimed at getting more black people into education who otherwise wouldn't get one due to the econmic background of many blacks in America. It's no different to offering grants to people from poor backgrounds.

    Ill repost again:

    The fact that whites may be in the majority in no way changes the fact that it is a double standard.

    Further, in many parts of the country whites are NOT the majority. At some universities like the LSE for instance. To claim that the acceptability of such a society lives and dies on whether or not you are more numerous is rather inexplicable. One has nothing to do with the other.
    As far as I'm concerned this has nothing to do with individual Universities. I'm talking about the country itself, a predominantly white society. It's not unreasonable to see why minority groups like to be brought together to share their own culture. Blacks in America is different to just 'whites' because they are a historically oppressed group, united by common background and culture, much like the term 'working class'. The term 'white' encompasses so many cultural divisions and is the dominant racial group in this country, so it would be ridiculous to lay claim to any 'white' culture, as I have already said, 'British' culture would be more suitable.

    In the West Indies for instance, where whites are very much in the minority, the notion of all white clubs, or groups, or organizations would seem absurd. People would object - DESPITE WHITES BEING A MINORITY. However there are many Indo and Afro-Caribbean societies etc. No one bats an eyelid.
    You may be right on that one, I have no idea about the West Indies, historically or today, so I can' argue with you. It would seem a double standard, but as it's a different country altogether, I find it a foolish comparison.
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Social deprivation is not the province of blacks. The people in the US with the lowest annual income are white.

    Regardless - you think its ok for a black man with money to make a conscious decision to help kids only so long as they are black???



    So you would be ok with a white person setting up a scholarship for poor WHITE kids only to the exclusion of all blacks?
    Lawz, yes i think its fine that if ANYONE had the wish to send more black boys to university, they should be allowed to pay for them. People can do what the hell they like with their own money.

    I would be perfectly fine with a white guy setting up a fund for white boys to go to uni. Or indeed anyone giving their own money to any type of group to send them to university. If it was governmental, thee would be a problem. But so far, all you've managed to do is drag up Howard, what with all of its baggage, and an example of a back boys scholarship. Whcih in itself, has the perfect right to exist. If i had the money, and i wanted all girls to have bigger boobs, i should be allowed to pay for them with a fund of my own money. no that i would anyway, thats just a dumb example
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    (Original post by Laika)
    Please don not use American examples, particularly in this case where you're wrong anyway, because the race situation is historically different over there as blacks haven't had equal access to education.


    I’m not wrong at all. Yes it may be open to non-blacks, but to deliberately go after one race in terms of admissions is questionable. If it was the other way around you would object. Quite rightly.

    The Scholarship example is another matter to address. Again, if it were the other way around you would be complaining.

    (Original post by Laika)
    It's totally off the original example of University Societies and is merely you scrabbling to provide evidence of double standards.


    Scrabbling? Sure sure ... use whatever quaint little verb you choose. it IS an example of double standards. That you seem so glibly unable to agree that they exist is rather worrying.

    (Original post by Laika)
    As for the UNCF, it's obviously aimed at getting more black people into education who otherwise wouldn't get one due to the econmic background of many blacks in
    (Original post by Laika)
    America. It's no different to offering grants to people from poor backgrounds.


    Actually it IS different - how you ask? Because it ISNT offering it to people on the basis of social circumstance, it offers it on a combination of that and Race.

    People who can’t separate social depravity and race worry me.


    [quote=Laika]As far as I'm concerned this has nothing to do with individual Universities. I'm talking about the country itself, a predominantly white society. It's not unreasonable to see why minority groups like to be brought together to share their own culture.[/quoute]

    Do you apply the same logic to whites? Can they want to be brought up in their own culture? Your argument seems very similar to one I might hear from the BNP against any immigration.

    (Original post by Laika)
    Blacks in
    (Original post by Laika)
    America is different to just 'whites' because they are a historically oppressed group, united by common background and culture, much like the term 'working class'.


    Blacks in the US are NOT at all from a common culture at all... you have afro-Americans. afro Caribbean people, Africans... etc.. .


    (Original post by Laika)
    You may be right on that one, I have no idea about the
    (Original post by Laika)
    West Indies, historically or today, so I can' argue with you. It would seem a double standard, but as it's a different country altogether, I find it a foolish comparison.


    Oh Im sorry - are we bound by some invisible rule to only discuss UK issues?
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    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    Lawz, yes i think its fine that if ANYONE had the wish to send more black boys to university, they should be allowed to pay for them. People can do what the hell they like with their own money.

    I would be perfectly fine with a white guy setting up a fund for white boys to go to uni. Or indeed anyone giving their own money to any type of group to send them to university. If it was governmental, thee would be a problem. But so far, all you've managed to do is drag up Howard, what with all of its baggage, and an example of a back boys scholarship. Whcih in itself, has the perfect right to exist. If i had the money, and i wanted all girls to have bigger boobs, i should be allowed to pay for them with a fund of my own money. no that i would anyway, thats just a dumb example
    A right to exist? WHat are you talking about? are you failing to separate law and morality again?

    Of COURSe they can do with their money as they please - that isnt the point. The point is - is it justifiable to set up a scholarship that only helps people if they are the right race.

    Not to mention that the Scholarship probably enjoys tax benefits - so actually is in part state funded.
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    A right to exist? WHat are you talking about? are you failing to separate law and morality again?

    Of COURSe they can do with their money as they please - that isnt the point. The point is - is it justifiable to set up a scholarship that only helps people if they are the right race.

    Not to mention that the Scholarship probably enjoys tax benefits - so actually is in part state funded.
    You find Laika's views worrying. Well you know what i find worrying? The fact that you can only look at the bare fact, the written word, and cant at all scratch at the surface, and think of why these things were set up.

    Laika, who is a boy i agree with on everything it seems, told you about why that university was opened. Then he told you that white people can still go there. Are you just ignoring the why? Is it because you have no defence?#

    You say it isn't the point- it is precisrely the point. They can pay for black boys to go to university if they want to. They have their own reasons. A uni can be set up for black people who would have had no higher education if it were not for that institution! Think of the context, and stop being so narrow-minded. Yes, it appears to be a double standard at first glance. But not at second, thrid or fourth, hen you suddenly think, hey! If this uni wasnt opened, no black peroson could have gone to uni because of the DISCRIMINATION back then. And look, it can admit non-blacks too. Where are the double standards now?

    They way you phrase is makes me laugh too. "If you are in the right race"

    There are scholarships out there for people who wouldn't have the option of uni without them. Its about poverty. Plenty of white people are poor, there are also plenty of scholarships for poor people. The more scholarships out there, the better. nd remeber, you only need one scholarship. If more are there, its more fair on the people who need them anyway. A black person taken up a scholarship made for black boys wont be taking a scholaship that could have gone to another kid.
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    Lawz, i might just add that, contrary to the belief that laws is an ethnic minority female, it is in fact the case that HE is WHITE.
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    I’m not wrong at all. Yes it may be open to non-blacks, but to deliberately go after one race in terms of admissions is questionable. If it was the other way around you would object. Quite rightly.
    Don't be ridiculous. They don't deliberately target blacks just for the sake of it, this is a University set up IN RESPONSE to the fact that blacks weren't getting access to education. You can't deny the history of blacks and the civil rights movement in America to distort the comparison to University societies. It isn't necassarly necassary today, but being as that it's open to anyone, it's not remotely excluding anyone. So going by your logic here, you must be opposed to any societies at University in general, as they are targeting a certain type of person, even though ANYONE is welcome to join?

    The Scholarship example is another matter to address. Again, if it were the other way around you would be complaining.
    To be honest, I do see that as a bit dubious, though as it also clearly has it's origins in the civil rights movement it's understandable why it exists. It's probably redundant now though.

    Do you apply the same logic to whites? Can they want to be brought up in their own culture? Your argument seems very similar to one I might hear from the BNP against any immigration.
    Are you unable to comprehend the point behind my posts? Stick to University societies. They are there to bring together smaller groups that have a cultural and national history different to that of the mainstream culture in this country. 'White' is a racial group. It's not the same comparison. If it was British, it would be a suitable comparison, and I don't think anyone would object to a British society.

    Blacks in the US are NOT at all from a common culture at all... you have afro-Americans. afro Caribbean people, Africans... etc.. .

    Oh Im sorry - are we bound by some invisible rule to only discuss UK issues?
    Blacks in the U.S. are united by historic oppression, the civil rights movement, etc. It's a shared black American cultural history. That's why in America, it's understandable that on the grounds of race, people may form groups, as it could apply to any oppressed group, women, the working class etc.

    If you're going to try and find double standards throughout the globe, then it's just totally distorting the issue. Of course there are going to be some racial double standards in other countries. We're discussing the formation of University societies in the UK, the discussion going from a 'white' university society to the West Indies. Let's not stray into farce.
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    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    Lawz, i might just add that, contrary to the belief that laws is an ethnic minority female, it is in fact the case that HE is WHITE.
    Huh?

    Im white?

    Thanks. I didnt know that.
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    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    You find Laika's views worrying. Well you know what i find worrying? The fact that you can only look at the bare fact, the written word, and cant at all scratch at the surface, and think of why these things were set up.
    Glad to know. Thanks.

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    Laika, who is a boy i agree with on everything it seems, told you about why that university was opened. Then he told you that white people can still go there. Are you just ignoring the why? Is it because you have no defence?
    Ill admit I didn’t know the full truth. However, the current state of play is that an infinitesimally small fraction of Howard will be non-black. Whether or not they are open to other races, if a white university in the US had such a poor diversity record, there would be outcry.

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    You say it isn't the point- it is precisrely the point. They can pay for black boys to go to university if they want to. They have their own reasons.
    That is to grossly miss the issue I am addressing. Of COURSE they can... just as the KKK CAN demonstrate racist views if they choose or spend money producing racist literature. My point is that to help people on the basis of their skin color is reprehensible.

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    A uni can be set up for black people who would have had no higher education if it were not for that institution!
    That is no longer the case.

    Yes, it appears to be a double standard at first glance. But not at second, thrid or fourth, hen you suddenly think, hey! If this uni wasnt opened, no black peroson could have gone to uni because of the DISCRIMINATION back then. And look, it can admit non-blacks too. Where are the double standards now?[/quote]

    See above.

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    There are scholarships out there for people who wouldn't have the option of uni without them. Its about poverty.
    If its about poverty why is race relevant?

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    Plenty of white people are poor, there are also plenty of scholarships for poor people.
    And yet not WHITE people who are poor. Quite right to. Your race should be entirely irrelevant.

    I find it ironic that I am always arguing with people who claim that I am a racit or that thy re totally against racism, when my point is to give all races equal treatment.

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    The more scholarships out there, the better.
    Does it do good? Of course. are the parameters it uses racist - absolutely.

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    A black person taken up a scholarship made for black boys wont be taking a scholarship that could have gone to another kid.
    Yeah. But that's not what I'm addressing now is it.
 
 
 
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