Israel joining NATO? Watch

Bismarck
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Agent Smith)
No idea. Hey, I don't make the rules - if it was down to me they wouldn't be, either. Basic Geography again.
And here I was thinking that the purpose of alliances was military and political, and not geographical, but perhaps I'm just being silly.
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cuth
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#42
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I have been thinking about it - NATO is a throwback to the cold war, and most of the international security system built up during that time is irrelevant today (NATO, nuclear submarines etc...) IMO, a new system must be created, a new world order is emerging, and the west's system of ensuring peace must change to meet the new challenges. Perhaps the creation of an entirely new alliance system including Israel would be in order. The makeup of our armed forces, I feel will have to change as well to a much more mobile offensive force (we allready see this with the navy's new generation of ships). I am sure all this will change in time, but the west should wake up to this, as we are still in cold war mode.
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-x- Lici -x-
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#43
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They shouldnt be in Eurovision, the EU let alone NATO.
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Oddity
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#44
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I dont think that the geographical location of Isrel should affect the debate on weather it should or should not join the NATO but I believe that its political situation should. When there was the debate on whether Turkey was to join the EU there was some economic conditions the country should have adapted to. I think it should be the same for Israel. I mean...it has been at war for what?...60 yrs. well not anymore, but its still quite complicated.
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Ferrus
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#45
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(Original post by cuth)
I have been thinking about it - NATO is a throwback to the cold war, and most of the international security system built up during that time is irrelevant today (NATO, nuclear submarines etc...) IMO, a new system must be created, a new world order is emerging, and the west's system of ensuring peace must change to meet the new challenges. Perhaps the creation of an entirely new alliance system including Israel would be in order. The makeup of our armed forces, I feel will have to change as well to a much more mobile offensive force (we allready see this with the navy's new generation of ships). I am sure all this will change in time, but the west should wake up to this, as we are still in cold war mode.
Still the basic structures of NATO are applicable for cross-national military action whatever the type of hardware used. The real issue with NATO is the "new Europe" and "old Europe" division.
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Agent Smith
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#46
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Well, then, the money question must surely be: How is that division to be healed?
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cuth
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#47
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#47
Or does that division need to be healed?
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SuperhansFavouriteAlsatian
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#48
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(Original post by brimstone)
I feel Israel has every right to join Nato - not that Nato really does much or is worth anything now.
Nato's first ever military action was just over ten years ago. In that sense, they're more relevent than ever before.
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Bismarck
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#49
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(Original post by Georgia)
I dont think that the geographical location of Isrel should affect the debate on weather it should or should not join the NATO but I believe that its political situation should. When there was the debate on whether Turkey was to join the EU there was some economic conditions the country should have adapted to. I think it should be the same for Israel. I mean...it has been at war for what?...60 yrs. well not anymore, but its still quite complicated.
Turkey is in NATO, and it got in when it was far from a democracy or stable (same for Greece).
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WokSz
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#50
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#50
(Original post by cuth)
OK, it dosent look like they will in the immediate future, but to me this seems like a sensible move in light of the escalating tensions in the middle east. What are your opinions?

From Wall Street Journal -
http://online.wsj.com/public/article...f_main_tff_top
NATO = North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. Israel is in the Middle East, not Europe. Therefore, they should just stay out of NATO. It was even pointless to allow West Germany to join it in the 1950s.
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Longshoredrift80
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#51
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(Original post by WokSz)
NATO = North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. Israel is in the Middle East, not Europe.
Continental Europe isn't exactly "North Atlantic", Southern Europe (Italy, Greece etc.) isn't "North Atlantic", Turkey isn't even close to "North Atlantic". As was said before, geography is not the be-all and end-all of NATO membership. Israel is actually very close to NATO members such as Greece - just a short hop across the Med and seeing as it shares Western values and interests, is an obvious candidate for membership.
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Longshoredrift80
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#52
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#52
(Original post by -x- Lici -x-)
They shouldnt be in Eurovision, the EU let alone NATO.
Got a reason? Or are you just spouting?
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WokSz
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#53
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#53
(Original post by JonathanH)
Continental Europe isn't exactly "North Atlantic", Southern Europe (Italy, Greece etc.) isn't "North Atlantic", Turkey isn't even close to "North Atlantic". As was said before, geography is not the be-all and end-all of NATO membership. Israel is actually very close to NATO members such as Greece - just a short hop across the Med and seeing as it shares Western values and interests, is an obvious candidate for membership.
The 12 original members of NATO did not include Greece and Turkey. One of the main reasons these two countries, and many others in Europe entered NATO were due to America's continued war against Soviet Union and in line with their policy of 'containment.' If Israel joins today, it will spark even more conflict in the Middle East and actually widen the gap between the Islamic World and the West. They will once again feel that the West is out to 'bully' the Middle East.
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SuperhansFavouriteAlsatian
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#54
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This is stupid. Why let a name restrict entry? It's name was merely to set it against Russia - to have "Europe" in the title would have put it on the same field as Russia.

If it were only for countries touching the Atlantic, it'd be made up of Canada, USA, UK, Ireland and France. That's about it.
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Longshoredrift80
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#55
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#55
(Original post by WokSz)
The 12 original members of NATO did not include Greece and Turkey. One of the main reasons these two countries, and many others in Europe entered NATO were due to America's continued war against Soviet Union and in line with their policy of 'containment.'
Those countries joined because it was in the strategic interests of the current membership at the time to have them as members. Today NATO countries still face a threat and still operates globally. The circumstances may be different to that faced in the days if the USSR, but if NATO was given validity only by its opposition to the USSR, then why is it still going 15 years after the USSR went up in smoke? NATO has evolved far beyond 'containment', it's not relevant to refer back to that time.

(Original post by WokSz)
If Israel joins today, it will spark even more conflict in the Middle East
How? Surely other countries would think much more carefully about starting a war on Israel were it a NATO member? Explain how there would be more conflict.

(Original post by WokSz)
They will once again feel that the West is out to 'bully' the Middle East.
The West would be 'bullying' the Middle East by voluntarily including a country in NATO that wants to be in NATO? How would that work? It wouldn't involve many changes on the ground, it would be a thoroughly political gesture as well as a military one. Israel would still retain its own military control, NATO states can operate quite independently (as the Iraq war proved), Israel would not allow masses of foreign troops in to the extent that other countries would feel threatened.
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WokSz
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#56
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(Original post by JonathanH)
How? Surely other countries would think much more carefully about starting a war on Israel were it a NATO member? Explain how there would be more conflict.
I did not say that by Israel joining NATO, countries would think twice before attacking Israel. However, the current situation in the Middle East isn't exactly good. Iran is already posing a threat and its views concerning Israel are fairly negative. By Israel joining NATO, Iran will get yet another chance to criticize the West. I am truely scared of the ambiguities in Iran's nuclear power and I really do feel that instead of giving them another excuse to 'blow up' the West, we should actually try and combat it. But then again, I do agree that by not joining NATO, it won't change Iran's opinion on Israel.

T
(Original post by JonathanH)
The West would be 'bullying' the Middle East by voluntarily including a country in NATO that wants to be in NATO? How would that work?
Unfortunately, not all Middle Eastern countries see it that way. Syria and Israel still argue about the strategic Golan Heights. Now, America isn't exactly at good terms with Syria and Bashar al-ASAD has often criticized America for its alliance with Israel (I unfortunately cannot find the magazine where I read this; but it was an edition of the Economist.) To cut it short, it will just make things worse in my honest opinion.


It wouldn't involve many changes on the ground, it would be a thoroughly political gesture as well as a military one. Israel would still retain its own military control, NATO states can operate quite independently (as the Iraq war proved), Israel would not allow masses of foreign troops in to the extent that other countries would feel threatened.
Yes, I fully understand that but my question remains: what's the true point? I don't see a benefit of it. I mean if it's only a political gesture, it'll just aggravate things, rather than make them better.
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Bismarck
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#57
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#57
(Original post by WokSz)
The 12 original members of NATO did not include Greece and Turkey. One of the main reasons these two countries, and many others in Europe entered NATO were due to America's continued war against Soviet Union and in line with their policy of 'containment.' If Israel joins today, it will spark even more conflict in the Middle East and actually widen the gap between the Islamic World and the West. They will once again feel that the West is out to 'bully' the Middle East.
That's the only reason Germany was allowed to join (and it joined after Greece and Turkey). I supposed it should be kicked out now?

(Original post by WokSz)
Unfortunately, not all Middle Eastern countries see it that way. Syria and Israel still argue about the strategic Golan Heights. Now, America isn't exactly at good terms with Syria and Bashar al-ASAD has often criticized America for its alliance with Israel (I unfortunately cannot find the magazine where I read this; but it was an edition of the Economist.) To cut it short, it will just make things worse in my honest opinion.
What difference would that make? Syria has terrible relations with all the key members of NATO, including France!
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WokSz
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#58
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#58
(Original post by Bismarck)
That's the only reason Germany was allowed to join (and it joined after Greece and Turkey). I supposed it should be kicked out now?
No, I do not think that it should. However, I just feel that allowing Israel to join might make an already bad situation worse.

What difference would that make? Syria has terrible relations with all the key members of NATO, including France!
You people seem to be missing the point of what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying that by Israel joining things will suddenly worsen. It's just that it will make a bad situation worse.
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Paul Bedford
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#59
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#59
(Original post by Bismarck)
Israel is as much of European origin as the US and Canada...
If people like you represent Israel then I'd vote to keep them out every day of the week.
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Longshoredrift80
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#60
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#60
(Original post by WokSz)
Iran is already posing a threat and its views concerning Israel are fairly negative. By Israel joining NATO, Iran will get yet another chance to criticize the West.
No, Iran will get a big message - try to eliminate Israel and you'll have a hell of a lot of us to deal with. Iran doesn't need chances to criticise the West, it'll do it over anything, rational or irrational, Iran will criticise no matter what.

(Original post by WokSz)
I am truely scared of the ambiguities in Iran's nuclear power and I really do feel that instead of giving them another excuse to 'blow up' the West, we should actually try and combat it.
And what better way to combat Iran's threat than actively saying that you will not support their nuclear aspirations or desire for Israel to be eliminated? Once again, Iran needs no excuses to attack the West, it already claims to have thousands of bombers lined up to attack British targets should there be action against its nuclear capabilities.

(Original post by WokSz)
Unfortunately, not all Middle Eastern countries see it that way. Syria and Israel still argue about the strategic Golan Heights.
So?

(Original post by WokSz)
Now, America isn't exactly at good terms with Syria and Bashar al-ASAD has often criticized America for its alliance with Israel
Syria has crap relations with everyone, including its previous buddies like France. Syria is impotent and Israel alone could militarily defeat it without much trouble, why should Syrian or Iranian discomfort prevent Israeli entry to NATO?

(Original post by WokSz)
Yes, I fully understand that but my question remains: what's the true point? I don't see a benefit of it.
Send a clear message to Iran and Syria that the West will not stand idly by and watch them sponsor terror and make threats against other States. Bring the very well-equipped Israeli intelligence and military forces in to full alliance with the other NATO countries. Solidify a front against any Islamist expansionism by Iran, provide a useful outpost for NATO in the Middle East... There are many benefits.
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