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    (Original post by OU Student)

    Very flawed imo.
    You still have not explained to me why someone who does not need the loan (ie has enough money without it) should be able to get the grant

    I understand why someone who has the full loan might still need the grant IN ADDITION because parents cannot afford to help ... that makes sense

    BUT

    If surely if you need less than or up to the £3575 that the loan provides then you should have the loan ... not be able to say NO I don't want to borrow anything I just want the free money

    I cannot see how that is fair


    If I have misinterpreted this, please say so and I will link the threads where I have seen this being discussed
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    (Original post by OU Student)
    How illogical. So, are you seriously suggesting that someone who wants to be a nurse, gets the same amount of money regardless of where they live? And why should an art student who attends the same uni as a computing student get less?

    It makes no sense at all.

    Some degrees offer quite a few employment options. How would you decide from the hundreds of options how much someone would get, based on that? Some people also go into completely different careers based on what they studied.

    Very flawed imo.
    firstly i've stated in a different post that nurses and teachers etc could be an exception and that there are flaws in the funding of these courses.

    secondly an are student who attends the same uni as a computer student should get given a lower loan because it is likely that the computer student would go on to earn more and therefore have a greater ability to pay the loan back, exceptions can be made for public sector workers such as nurses and teachers who don't generally generate a profit.

    As for your final point, universities have all sorts of figures on their courses. A university is able to say "a student on the X degree, on average, will earn £YYYYU, these figures could be easily submitted, along with average living costs, to a body which decides the loans.


    Finally, just out of curiosity , as you are called 'OU Student' does that mean you do an open university course?
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    (Original post by Origami Bullets)
    You can't measure the worth of a degree by a person's earnings. That's the problem.

    I'm sure you think golf course management is a worthless course, but in reality it has a very high graduate employment rate. Nurses and social workers don't earn much, but we do need them. Many maths and physics graduates go into investment banking - and look where that's got us.
    I agree that essential public sector workers should be supported and have a better system of funding.

    If golf course management has high employment rates with high salaries then i wouldn't say it's a worthless degree at all.

    lets not get into investment banking a) it will end up going seriously off topic b) i've just finished my dissertation on this area, any more will give me a migraine.
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    (Original post by LexiswasmyNexis)
    That is a ridiculous idea.


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    May i take this opportunity to thank you for this insightful post.

    Top marks for debating skills.
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    I'm not happy with the system. Because we were struggling for some money last year, my Mum worked a crazy amount of overtime and because of that I get £3600.

    I can't even afford accommodation. I'm at a loss at what to do.
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    (Original post by eelnais)
    I'm not happy with the system. Because we were struggling for some money last year, my Mum worked a crazy amount of overtime and because of that I get £3600.

    I can't even afford accommodation. I'm at a loss at what to do.
    and yet i bet you have friends whose parents don't work as hard who end uo getting £6k worth of support.
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    (Original post by tombrown7)
    It really annoys me when they say "anyone can go to uni", i just filled in my application and based on my parents salary, i will hardly get nothing at all. They get decent salary but have so many outgoing like mortgage, credit card bill and many more, so can't really provide for me.

    Most of the time, to go you have to be either be from a rich background or poor (where they get everything given to them on a silver platter). But a hard working family gets no help what so ever :/
    Welcome to Tory Britain
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    (Original post by blue n white army)
    and yet i bet you have friends whose parents don't work as hard who end uo getting £6k worth of support.
    Yeah. The thing is, I'm all for them getting grants and loans and whatever. I just wish this stupid Tory government would take into account that WORKING OVERTIME SHOULDN'T COUNT! And now my parents are going to have to work even harder to try and help me, I'm going to get a job of course, and then my loan will go down because they had to work even harder to try and pay me through.

    A flawless system indeed, Student Finance. Punish the hard workers and as usual, please the rich and satisfy only the very very poor.
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    (Original post by eelnais)
    Yeah. The thing is, I'm all for them getting grants and loans and whatever. I just wish this stupid Tory government would take into account that WORKING OVERTIME SHOULDN'T COUNT! And now my parents are going to have to work even harder to try and help me, I'm going to get a job of course, and then my loan will go down because they had to work even harder to try and pay me through.

    A flawless system indeed, Student Finance. Punish the hard workers and as usual, please the rich and satisfy only the very very poor.
    it's not just the tory government it was the same when my eldest brother went to uni in 2003. However i totally agree that its the families in the middle band that get shafted the most.
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    (Original post by Melthusa)
    Welcome to Tory Britain
    the system is the same that was used under labour
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    I'm both completely baffled and disgusted that so many people in this discussion so far don't think that you can be both poor and hard working. Manual labour, in general, is harder work and pays less than a majority of jobs. So the idea that you're either poor or hard working is just ridiculous.


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    (Original post by blue n white army)
    the system is the same that was used under labour
    Tuition fees weren't as high under labour. Less to pay back.
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    (Original post by Esempy)
    I'm both completely baffled and disgusted that so many people in this discussion so far don't think that you can be both poor and hard working. Manual labour, in general, is harder work and pays less than a majority of jobs. So the idea that you're either poor or hard working is just ridiculous.


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    Exactly. My mum is a carer and works from 7-6 in between that travelling using public transport to different client. She works through easter and christmas yet earns <25000. Bare in mind she doesn't get paid holidays and this is before tax.
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    I swear a majority of middle class people don't understand what a low income is. One of the reasons people from a low income family get more help is because their parents do not physically have the money to give their children to help at uni, even if they wanted to. Middle class parents, on the other hand, do. Whether you say "my parents won't give me money" or "they can't afford it" the reality is, if their income is above £25/30k or however much the threshold is now, then they definitely can afford it. If you believe your parents can't afford it on that sort of salary then you really need to learn the value of money, or your parents need to learn how to budget.
    Regardless of whether they do give their children money for uni or not, the point is they have the choice to. Lower income families do not have that choice. And most parents would support their children financially if they can.


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    You gotta make sacrifices, don't live in best accommodation, budget your food money, don't go out much.
    Anyone can go to uni if they want to. But not everyone can do everything they want. It sucks but there's no way around it.
    Plus getting a job always helps.
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    And it's completely absurd to be jealous of a student who's gotten more financial support because they're from a low income family, or say it's not fair. I'm sure if you looked at the (18) years of their lives before they went to uni of living on a low income with their families, you wouldn't be jealous. I'm sure they'd be jealous of you, and think how spoiled your acting was unfair.


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    (Original post by -Liberty)
    Exactly. My mum is a carer and works from 7-6 in between that travelling using public transport to different client. She works through easter and christmas yet earns <25000. Bare in mind she doesn't get paid holidays and this is before tax.
    Yes thank you! My mum supports me and my brother on under 15k a year, and she works in a kitchen 7-5 as well as ridiculous overtime to make sure she can afford to look after us. I've watched her working before and I know she works obscenely hard. Some people are so sheltered, they're naive to so much.

    It's like. If you go to uni, or move out and live independently in general, you need to learn how to budget. You probably wont be able to afford luxuries for yourself every single day. Get over it.


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    (Original post by tombrown7)
    It really annoys me when they say "anyone can go to uni", i just filled in my application and based on my parents salary, i will hardly get nothing at all. They get decent salary but have so many outgoing like mortgage, credit card bill and many more, so can't really provide for me.

    Most of the time, to go you have to be either be from a rich background or poor (where they get everything given to them on a silver platter). But a hard working family gets no help what so ever :/
    I am a taxpayer without children. It is perfectly possible to make a case why I should subsidise the children of poor parents to go to university.

    However, give me one good reason why I should subsidise you when your parents have chosen to spend money which they could have spent on your education, on a better house or on their credit card expenditure?
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    (Original post by blue n white army)
    May i take this opportunity to thank you for this insightful post.

    Top marks for debating skills.
    To be honest I don't really think it needs any more explanation. But here we go.

    1. The idea that you should tie degree worth to 'earning potential' doesn't sit well with me.

    I disagree that worth is linked to salary because social utility is not linked to salary.

    2. Many people who study degrees that you consider worthless go on to make a lot of money and aide the economy. You would discourage this from happening.

    3. Conversely, you would give an advantage to those who do your worthy degrees but who have no hope of gainful employment.

    4. You would create an artificial market where there were a disproportionate number of students doing your worthy jobs.

    Over time this over supply would effect grad prospects and salaries. Would you change your model to reduce the financial package available?

    If so, you model is self defeating.

    If you would not, your model is logically fallacious.

    5. A large majority of graduates do not work in the area that their degree is in. This is how it has always been. I don't see how you can calculate a true 'average salary' when each case is different without sledgehammering where a tooth pick is needed.

    6. I suspect that your measure would indirectly discriminate against women who are statistically less likely to do engineering studies and statistically more likely to do arts.

    Good luck getting that past equality legislation.

    7. I suspect the subjects you consider less worthy are cheaper for universities to run. They do, therefore, subsidise more expensive courses (as they are charged the same).

    If less people were to stop doing these courses, the funding for sciences and complex engineering would be more limited. The courses would become more expensive (defeating your objective re giving those students economic advantage) or they would become unsustainable.

    8. The fact that you are so happy to make public service exceptions is an indication that hadn't thought it through.

    9. Some of the most influential people in public life (politicians/lawyers) studied degrees your model might find has 'poorer' employment prospects (history, philosophy, law, psychology). Your plan would restrict social mobility in relation to these subjects. The resulting effect on social mobility in these key public areas would not be desirable.

    10. If your model is based on earning potential in subject area, then it doesn't account for employment prospects of various universities. This is logically flawed.

    In the alternative, if it did take account of university attended then it would be very dangerous for the sustainability of those courses and institutions.

    You should not overlook the massive boost universities give to their local area courtesy of the people they employ and the money the students spend.

    Summary:

    -too many important variables your catch all policy would ignore

    -efforts to catch all variables would be confusing, expensive, and logically self defeating

    -you haven't really thought it through.

    -apologies for typos. I'm in a rush.


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