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    (Original post by xxxxLillyxxxx)
    With thing like science, it isn't like public service, or office work etc, where women have been able to do those jobs for the past couple of decades.

    It's about overcoming the stigma that in this day and age still surround women in science

    It's not about discriminating against men, it's about overcoming the stigma woman face from narrow-minded comments such as: 'Not as clever as a man, how would she know etc.

    Allowing women an opportunity that they can't always get in a male environment.

    When the world is a woman’s world, I will take your comments about discrimination towards men seriously. Especially the comment of 'Imagine the outrage if there was an exclusively male only scholarship' hasn't that been the case for universities until the past few decades.

    Now women are getting women only scholarships, suddenly exclusivity is a problem?
    I don't understand how one can't be outraged at both. I personally am.

    And there are women in science. In every area of science. Some do work as well as their male counterparts, some don't. Just like some men perform as well as their female counterparts, some don't.
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    (Original post by Bellissima)
    because women are more intelligent than men and their input into the above fields would lead to great discoveries. women already do the things you mentioned like nursing well enough so we don't need men doing it too.
    Oh wow this is gold.

    Firstly, not only is your statement about intelligence sexist and patently false (no-one can legitimately claim that one sex is more intelligent than the other), it is in no way a justification for discrimination. Even if women were more intelligent than men, it wouldn't change the number of men and women who were interested in studying certain subjects. Being more intelligent and being offered money is unlikely to persuade anyone to study a subject they are not interested in studying, so why should the money be offered to only a certain group of people in the first place?

    Your statement on nursing is equally as ridiculous. By your logic we shouldn't have women engineers for the same reason. We don't need men studying nursing or women studying engineering, but for those who have the aptitude and the motivation the opportunity should be available.
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    (Original post by Unkempt_One)
    Look, the problem with your second paragraph is that you're talking about a situation where the species is clearly very different to humans, whereas you're trying to say we can look at natural behaviour of different species, and apply that to humans and expect it to work. What I'm trying to get at is this logically tenuous way of describing human gender differences is unnecessary in the face of studies of the average differences between men and woman.
    If the whole population was as incompetent as you to extrapolate data and information from other sources and then to apply them to our own species and endeavours then we'd get absolutely nowhere.

    Would you compare contrast between two completely different spieces that are not human, such as looking at the hunting and stalking skills of each, understanding that they both exploit their environment for camouflage and what has driving them to develop such similar behaviour? If so, then why can't you do the same thing between humans and other species, maybe even very closely related species such as chimpanzees and bonobo apes?
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    Scientific progress is now based on positive discrimination as opposed to means-tested opportunities. :rolleyes:
    Do we now no longer cater for the best? Is progress now measured by satisfying the 'numbers game'? This system... ...:rolleyes:
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    (Original post by RedDevilThing)
    Oh wow this is gold.

    Firstly, not only is your statement about intelligence sexist and patently false (no-one can legitimately claim that one sex is more intelligent than the other), it is in no way a justification for discrimination. Even if women were more intelligent than men, it wouldn't change the number of men and women who were interested in studying certain subjects. Being more intelligent and being offered money is unlikely to persuade anyone to study a subject they are not interested in studying, so why should the money be offered to only a certain group of people in the first place?

    Your statement on nursing is equally as ridiculous. By your logic we shouldn't have women engineers for the same reason. We don't need men studying nursing or women studying engineering, but for those who have the aptitude and the motivation the opportunity should be available.
    Think she might have blocked me, mind editing your post to include mine as I think you'll agree with it?

    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...2#post42075662
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Presupposing that they will be heard.

    And also grouping men together as if they are intrinsically separate from women. And also presupposing that it is a male issue only. Many women should and probably do feel that positive discrimination in this way only leads to greater sexism. Because it says one rule for one sex and another for another sex. It can be seen to increase the identity politics. You know, men be with men and women be with women, don't mix, you're separate etc.
    Something many do fight against.

    There's a lot wrong with your post.
    The asumption i made that men couldnt be bothered to speak out comes from seeing a lot of guys on TSR and other forums, simply moaning but doing nothing.Yes there are a few women, but a greater number of men seem to speak so harshly about feminsists simply for being motivated when they themselves cba to do anything other than sit on a forum and whine about it.

    And why should they not be heard? If feminists can make themselves heard so can anyone else, just try hard enough. Nothing stopping women and anyone who calls themself a feminist joining in if they support them either.

    I didnt say in my post that only women were feminists either before i get accused of that :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Savvy Sage)
    Scientific progress is now based on positive discrimination as opposed to means-tested opportunities. :rolleyes:
    Do we now no longer cater for the best? Is progress now measured by satisfying the 'numbers game'? This system... ...:rolleyes:
    As long as the people in question are upto standard then the mean tested thing might remain true, but not the only discrimination. But if you've read my posts you all ready know that I agree with you about positive discrimination in this instance (which is: What a load of sexist *******s, we shouldn't be doing it).
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    (Original post by kunoichi)
    Then why dont a load of men get outraged and actually do something about it?

    Men moan because feminists actually get off their arses and speak out for what they want whilst failing to do the same.

    There is a lot that is undesirable about many feminists but moaning at them because men have a lack of motivation to speak out when they dont like something is wrong.
    Because getting outraged over something as small as this is pointless.

    My point is that if companies or whoever is offering this grant just made it open for both genders in the first place then there wouldn't be any need for people to get outraged.


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    (Original post by Bellissima)
    because women are more intelligent than men and their input into the above fields would lead to great discoveries. women already do the things you mentioned like nursing well enough so we don't need men doing it too.
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    I do sincerely hope this is ironic, but I will assume it is not.

    Firstly, women can indeed be intelligent. All my teachers (I study Bio, Chem and Phy at A2) are female and all highly intelligent. For instance, my Physics teacher got a first from Oxford.

    However, to say women 'are more intelligent than men' is a little short-sighted. They may well be, on average, but to say such a blunt statement with no context and no evidence just makes me sad.

    'Their input into the above fields would lead to great discoveries' is potentially true. Marie Curie for example. But that is not really the issue at hand, no one is disputing that women can be clever. The issue at hand is that there is positive discrimination on the grounds of sex, which if I were to receive any would annoy, belittle and condescend me. If women could go onto make these 'great discoveries' then they should compete for those places against their male counterparts who may also make great discoveries.

    'Women already do the things you mentioned like nursing well enough so we don't need men doing it too'... you are aware that this somewhat undermines your own argument? If we were to follow this logic then we would still be in a father-at-work-and-mother-at-home paradigm. Your, worrying, logic would suggest that because men do their jobs (for the sake of this context, we shall call it researcher) 'well enough' then women should stay at home with the children and washing up. If families wish to live that lifestyle then by all means do. But well I give up if I am being honest as this argument has just made me a little annoyed and I need my beauty sleep. :angry:

    So I shall conclude with, everyone should compete on an equal play-field. Exceptional circumstances, e.g. ill during A-level exams, should be noted during considerations but gender, race etc. should play no part in discussion, be it positive or negative discrimination.
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    (Original post by RedDevilThing)
    Oh wow this is gold.

    Firstly, not only is your statement about intelligence sexist and patently false (no-one can legitimately claim that one sex is more intelligent than the other), it is in no way a justification for discrimination. Even if women were more intelligent than men, it wouldn't change the number of men and women who were interested in studying certain subjects. Being more intelligent and being offered money is unlikely to persuade anyone to study a subject they are not interested in studying, so why should the money be offered to only a certain group of people in the first place?

    Your statement on nursing is equally as ridiculous. By your logic we shouldn't have women engineers for the same reason. We don't need men studying nursing or women studying engineering, but for those who have the aptitude and the motivation the opportunity should be available.
    yes i'm sorry but if women were running this **** then we'd already be living in a flying city on the other side of the universe 1000 years in the future. i think we just have more brain cells dedicated to intelligent thinking.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    This won't get anywhere without examples.

    As long as one of each sex can do anything you posit is sex dependent then sex is not the reason for any individual to do such activities, think in a particular way etc. etc.

    I think that social constructions are the cause for the sex divide in skill sets and presume that is the case with most if not all of them until I see reason not to believe it, because I believe there are no skill sets that are intrinsic to any particular sex.

    You presume that they are the result of genetics, of dna, and that some skill sets, maybe all skill sets, are dependent on sex.

    So please show some examples of sex dependent skill sets.
    As you please, lets take the innate behaviour of hunting prey as our example to keep things basic (since algebra didn't exist during our evolutionary process and therefore we have to implement the skills we developed at this time to solve more recent tasks and problems).

    Would you agree that it requires a less emotional mind set? You wouldn't survive very long as a vegetarian put it that way. Being squimish about killing and feeling sympathy for other life leads to vegetarianism right? Vegetarianism being a practice that has a vastly greater number of females following than males. Societal pressures didn't tell women that they should never eat meat did they?
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    (Original post by Bellissima)
    because women are more intelligent than men and their input into the above fields would lead to great discoveries. women already do the things you mentioned like nursing well enough so we don't need men doing it too.
    Well that's not sexist at all.


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    (Original post by Jordan.G)
    Because getting outraged over something as small as this is pointless.

    My point is that if companies or whoever is offering this grant just made it open for both genders in the first place then there wouldn't be any need for people to get outraged.


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    I agree that it should be open for both genders or that industries such as childcare should open similar grants for men etc, but the point still stands that if people dont like something they should speak up, not ***** about another group who do actually make that effort.
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    (Original post by Jordan.G)
    Well that's not sexist at all.


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    well everyone was thinking it.
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    (Original post by kunoichi)
    The asumption i made that men couldnt be bothered to speak out comes from seeing a lot of guys on TSR and other forums, simply moaning but doing nothing.Yes there are a few women, but a greater number of men seem to speak so harshly about feminsists simply for being motivated when they themselves cba to do anything other than sit on a forum and whine about it.
    Oh well, if you saw some guys on the internet...

    The whole point of feminism is for equality. Not for getting one up on the other sexes.

    And people in debates, on the media, they can help change perceptions, they can persuade, so long as the other person is at least a little open minded. So you could reduce my posts to moaning on the internet. But I think they're quite persuasive, and that anyone who reads them who is on the fence is likely to be swayed to my way of thinking on this issue.
    And why should they not be heard? If feminists can make themselves heard so can anyone else, just try hard enough. Nothing stopping women and anyone who calls themself a feminist joining in if they support them either.
    If I put you on my ignore list, you won't be heard. Just because someone's talking it doesn't mean that other people are listening.


    I didnt say in my post that only women were feminists either before i get accused of that :rolleyes:
    Straw-manning me? Smooth.

    I'm a feminist. By the way I'm also a man.
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    (Original post by Bellissima)
    yes i'm sorry but if women were running this **** then we'd already be living in a flying city on the other side of the universe 1000 years in the future. i think we just have more brain cells dedicated to intelligent thinking.
    This is amazing.


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    I read through everyone's comments but still don't understand really why there are scholarships like this.

    I've applied to study engineering at uni and one of my teachers turned around and said that the fact that I'm female applying for a male dominated subject would give me an advantage.

    I do not want this advantage. I want to be considered purely because they think I would be brilliant and could do well at the course (or future job!)

    Okay, I understand that scientific subjects are male dominated but does it really matter to have diversity in every single subject. Others have said about male nurses being a minority and of course doctors (though I think that last one is becoming more equal).

    See I think one of the issues is based on stereotypes. Stereotypically a nurse is female, a doctor is male and I've even heard that stereotypically a kindergarden/primary school teacher is female. Maybe we should learn to break these stereotypes and accept that any gender can do any job. (Allowing some stuff though - I know the Navy only allows males to apply to work on the submarines for health and safety reasons I presume since they go underwater for a long time)

    Someone also said that the gender minority applying for a course would apply any even if there wasn't a schlorship just for them and I totally agree. I want to work in the nuclear engineering industry so I'm going to do that whether you offer me extra money or not to do the course. So you might as well keep your money and use it on something more worthwhile, like helping more disadvantaged teens go to uni or something.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Oh well, if you saw some guys on the internet...

    The whole point of feminism is for equality. Not for getting one up on the other sexes.

    I agree and always have done, your point?

    And people in debates, on the media, they can help change perceptions, they can persuade, so long as the other person is at least a little open minded. So you could reduce my posts to moaning on the internet. But I think they're quite persuasive, and that anyone who reads them who is on the fence is likely to be swayed to my way of thinking on this issue.

    If I put you on my ignore list, you won't be heard. Just because someone's talking it doesn't mean that other people are listening.

    People didnt want to listen when women wanted the vote, but the immense effort made, ensured people did. Laziness is no excuse not to try and then go and ***** about someone else for making the effort that you could not be bothered to.


    Straw-manning me? Smooth.

    I'm a feminist. By the way I'm also a man.
    I really dont care what gender you are, neither have i accused you of being sexist.
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    You could be right in that in a totally equal world having a grant that doesn't include men might not be OK, but this world is by no means equal!

    For centuries, women have been excluded from science, and this grant is one persons attempt to help remedy that. These women-only grants are needed, not only for equality, but for the future of science! We NEED women to be scientists to contribute to the discoveries to tackle the massive problems we face, and these grants are a way of pulling down the remnants of the old male-dominance that used to plague science.

    Dont get me wrong - I totally understand your irritation at being excluded from such a good grant just because of your gender. Hopefully, in the future, gender based grants wont be needed...
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    (Original post by Bellissima)
    yes i'm sorry but if women were running this **** then we'd already be living in a flying city on the other side of the universe 1000 years in the future. i think we just have more brain cells dedicated to intelligent thinking.
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    I... just...

    I actually cannot fathom what you are on about.
 
 
 
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