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    (Original post by Kousar)
    Yes, an objective fact to me.
    I have no words...
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    (Original post by Kousar)
    I get you but...(arghhhh xD).Orthodox Christians believe in objective moral laws, to you, that might be subjective but to them it isn't.
    Yes, but philosophically and to the wider world it is subjective. I repeat once again:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_(philosophy)

    'Generally, objectivity means the state or quality of being true even outside of a subject's individual feelings, imaginings, or interpretations.'

    The introduction of to them makes it subjective BY DEFINITION. You're just going to have to accept that this part of your argument is flawed.
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    (Original post by halbeth)
    I completely understand what you're saying, but if something is an OPINION, rather than a fact that has been incontrovertibly proved, it is SUBJECTIVE. That is simply a matter of DEFINITIONS. It doesn't matter how much you perceive, it's about whether or not is PROVEN. You can argue it is your opinion and it is important to you, THAT is valid. You CANNOT argue that opinion is based on objective fact.

    The simple fact you have acknowledged, that our opinions differ and there isn't a PROVEN basis for one opinion to be more right than the other, renders it a subjective issue.
    (Original post by halbeth)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_(philosophy)

    'Generally, objectivity means the state or quality of being true even outside of a subject's individual feelings, imaginings, or interpretations.'
    Thank's for that, although I do study philosophy. (Although it seems hard to believe :') )
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    I have no words...
    Damn.
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    (Original post by halbeth)
    By stating that the woman is simply 'crudely exposing a "sexual" part of her body' and 'satisfying male desire' you have entirely misunderstood what feminists are trying to achieve. The point is that her breasts should not be regarded first and foremost as a sexual object, it is objectifying women. She is a free human being and has the right to do whatever she likes with her body. If males perceive it as sexual or desirable, that is their problem. Not hers.
    U on dat dere phaggy time?

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    (Original post by halbeth)
    By stating that the woman is simply 'crudely exposing a "sexual" part of her body' and 'satisfying male desire' you have entirely misunderstood what feminists are trying to achieve. The point is that her breasts should not be regarded first and foremost as a sexual object, it is objectifying women. She is a free human being and has the right to do whatever she likes with her body. If males perceive it as sexual or desirable, that is their problem. Not hers.
    Too much bro, too much...

    Breasts shouldn't be regarded as sexual objects, I mean thats objectifying and sexist right...

    What a joke.
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    (Original post by halbeth)
    By stating that the woman is simply 'crudely exposing a "sexual" part of her body' and 'satisfying male desire' you have entirely misunderstood what feminists are trying to achieve. The point is that her breasts should not be regarded first and foremost as a sexual object, it is objectifying women. She is a free human being and has the right to do whatever she likes with her body. If males perceive it as sexual or desirable, that is their problem. Not hers.
    Completely agree with you.
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    (Original post by Ice Constricter)
    Too much bro, too much...

    Breasts shouldn't be regarded as sexual objects, I mean thats objectifying and sexist right...

    What a joke.
    Their being perceived as sexual objects by others shouldn't be more important than the person who owns them is what I was saying. You're the joke here.
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    (Original post by halbeth)
    Their being perceived as sexual objects by others shouldn't be more important than the person who owns them is what I was saying. You're the joke here.
    No you're the joke here.

    I actually know the point you're trying to make, but your post basically comes off as "guys shouldn't be attracted to boobs and if they're its their problem". You need to clarify your point to stop the negs.

    And you're making the critical error of assuming that if a guy likes a woman's boobs he isn't seeing her as a person.
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    (Original post by halbeth)
    By stating that the woman is simply 'crudely exposing a "sexual" part of her body' and 'satisfying male desire' you have entirely misunderstood what feminists are trying to achieve. The point is that her breasts should not be regarded first and foremost as a sexual object, it is objectifying women. She is a free human being and has the right to do whatever she likes with her body. If males perceive it as sexual or desirable, that is their problem. Not hers.
    She has every right to expose her breasts, in the same respect every person has the right to find those breasts arousing. you cannot expect men not to stare or comment on it, i find that pretty silly.
    'Freedom comes with consequences and sexual attraction is one of them when exposing body parts that aren’t socially acceptable to expose.' don't get me wrong though i'm not saying that touching or whatever is acceptable.

    Hell even the law makes breasts sexual objects, If a person were to grab your arm that wouldn't be sexual assault, however grab your boobs and he could face jail, or other consequences.

    moreover sexual objecification isn't wrong at all. It's a natural human instinct to do that, the problem isn't sexual objectification it's just the fact that sexual objectification is combined with other things
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    (Original post by Ice Constricter)
    No you're the joke here.

    I actually know the point you're trying to make, but your post basically comes off as "guys shouldn't be attracted to boobs and if they're its their problem". You need to clarify your point to stop the negs.

    And you're making the critical error of assuming that if a guy likes a woman's boobs he isn't seeing her as a person.
    No, what a guy's opinions are of a woman's sexual attractiveness in private are perfectly fine. It's when that opinion suddenly becomes more important than the woman's own opinion of her body that it becomes a problem. THAT'S when it becomes not seeing her as a person, and that is what is going on in this context.
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    (Original post by bottled)
    She has every right to expose her breasts, in the same respect every person has the right to find those breasts arousing. you cannot expect men not to stare or comment on it, i find that pretty silly.
    'Freedom comes with consequences and sexual attraction is one of them when exposing body parts that aren’t socially acceptable to expose.' don't get me wrong though i'm not saying that touching or whatever is acceptable.

    Hell even the law makes breasts sexual objects, If a person were to grab your arm that wouldn't be sexual assault, however grab your boobs and he could face jail, or other consequences.
    The issue is that the OP stated that the woman in question shouldn't be doing so because it is 'undignified', for the reason that men are sexually attracted to boobs. Sexual attraction is FINE. I am also sexually attracted to boobs. I'm not saying it's a problem. I'm saying it's THEIR problem. Just because someone is sexually attracted to something that doesn't give them more rights over what are done with those boobs than the person who owns them. THAT is what I'm saying.
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    (Original post by halbeth)
    No, what a guy's opinions are of a woman's sexual attractiveness in private are perfectly fine. It's when that opinion suddenly becomes more important than the woman's own opinion of her body that it becomes a problem. THAT'S when it becomes not seeing her as a person, and that is what is going on in this context.
    Did you mention this in that post you got negged for? That's why you were negged.
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    (Original post by Ice Constricter)
    Did you mention this in that post you got negged for? That's why you were negged.
    My original post:

    "The point is that her breasts should not be regarded first and foremost as a sexual object, it is objectifying women. She is a free human being and has the right to do whatever she likes with her body. If males perceive it as sexual or desirable, that is their problem. Not hers."

    I think I covered it fairly well, yes.
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    (Original post by halbeth)
    The issue is that the OP stated that the woman in question shouldn't be doing so because it is 'undignified', for the reason that men are sexually attracted to boobs. Sexual attraction is FINE. I am also sexually attracted to boobs. I'm not saying it's a problem. I'm saying it's THEIR problem. Just because someone is sexually attracted to something that doesn't give them more rights over what are done with those boobs than the person who owns them. THAT is what I'm saying.
    oh, i quoted the wrong person again, but hell whatever. Showing your boobs isn't undignified, don't get me wrong. But again, if they're out, they have every right to comment and stare at it. They have no right to touch of course, but you seriously cannot complain about it. I've seen teenage girls do the same thing to Frank the hunky lifeguard, he doesn't complain. i dont' even know why i gave him a name...

    and how on earth should it be their problem they're naturally attracted to breasts. They can't help being attracted to breasts. I'm just saying, if a lady walked outside topless and i decided to stare at her, she has no right to tell me not to look.
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    (Original post by bottled)
    oh, i quoted the wrong person again, but hell whatever. Showing your boobs isn't undignified, don't get me wrong. But again, if they're out, they have every right to comment and stare at it. They have no right to touch of course, but you seriously cannot complain about it. I've seen teenage girls do the same thing to Frank the hunky lifeguard, he doesn't complain. i dont' even know why i gave him a name...

    and how on earth should it be their problem they're naturally attracted to breasts. They can't help being attracted to breasts. I'm just saying, if a lady walked outside topless and i decided to stare at her, she has no right to tell me not to look.
    Why? Are they your boobs? Staring at people is generally socially unacceptable. Why does not wearing a particular layer of clothing suddenly change this?
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    (Original post by halbeth)
    My original post:

    "The point is that her breasts should not be regarded first and foremost as a sexual object, it is objectifying women. She is a free human being and has the right to do whatever she likes with her body. If males perceive it as sexual or desirable, that is their problem. Not hers."

    I think I covered it fairly well, yes.
    Ok whatever, just stop complaining about the negs if you're too stubborn to listen...
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    (Original post by Ice Constricter)
    Ok whatever, just stop complaining about the negs if you're too stubborn to listen...
    I just answered your question and showed that I did show this in my original post, and your response is 'Ok whatever, you're too stubborn to listen'.

    Great debating skills, buddy.
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    (Original post by halbeth)
    I just answered your question and showed that I did show this in my original post, and your response is 'Ok whatever, you're too stubborn to listen'.

    Great debating skills, buddy.
    This isn't a debate, although I'm flattered you took it as that, I wasn't even try to "debate" with you with that reply, clearly! :lol:
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    (Original post by bottled)
    oh, i quoted the wrong person again, but hell whatever. Showing your boobs isn't undignified, don't get me wrong. But again, if they're out, they have every right to comment and stare at it. They have no right to touch of course, but you seriously cannot complain about it. I've seen teenage girls do the same thing to Frank the hunky lifeguard, he doesn't complain. i dont' even know why i gave him a name...

    and how on earth should it be their problem they're naturally attracted to breasts. They can't help being attracted to breasts. I'm just saying, if a lady walked outside topless and i decided to stare at her, she has no right to tell me not to look.
    If I find a girl attractive I don't stare at them, why should it be different if her boobs are out? It should be the man's responsibility to practise some self restraint not the woman's responsibility to not get creeped out by drooling strangers. If somebody doesn't want you to stare at them then you shouldn't, it's just common decency. And I know what you're going to say: 'if you don't want people staring at you then don't be topless', but then we get back to the original point of men's sexual attraction overriding woman's freedom to do what she wants with her body.
 
 
 
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