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Is feminism still relevant; what is modern-day feminism like? watch

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    (Original post by Idle)
    That has nothing to do with feminism what so ever frankly, it's a tragic story though.

    (Original post by Idle)
    I'm sorry if there was not enough evidence in a court of law then they are not guilty. Our whole justice system is based on being innocent until proven guilty. I hope they find the evidence to convict whoever but the media are not a jury.
    Oh for goodness sake, it's not just about whether they were found guilty or not. That people stood by and took pictures? That these were then distributed around the school, and people called her a 'slut'? This is all to do with ideas of what women 'should' and 'should not' do, violence against woman and society's response (from both men and women) and EVERYTHING to do with feminism. Perhaps the reason why people think there is no place for feminism is because they clearly do not understand what it is?
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    (Original post by Dez)
    Since we don't have a similar case to compare to, this is conjecture really, but can you honestly imagine people sending a guy texts asking for sex after something like this happened to him? Probably not. In reality those messages are just a thin veil for the whole you-deserved-it attitude towards rape.
    The method of demonisation is different but I cannot imagine that the person would not receive texts which implicated their blame for their rape. I certainly can imagine the guys being mocked for being weak and less of a man by both sexes. I can't imagine anything else. The fact there isn't a similar case would give insight into such things since from prison and such its well documented men are the victims of rape. Being a victim is the thing being demonised here whether the slur is one of sexual availability or sexuality or masculinity.

    I think the attitudes of you deserve it are clearly there, but equally there are attitudes that the guys who did there are somehow celebrated, pictures of their acts are passed around.
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    (Original post by doggyfizzel)
    The method of demonisation is different but I cannot imagine that the person would not receive texts which implicated their blame for their rape. I certainly can imagine the guys being mocked for being weak and less of a man by both sexes. I can't imagine anything else. The fact there isn't a similar case would give insight into such things since from prison and such its well documented men are the victims of rape. Being a victim is the thing being demonised here whether the slur is one of sexual availability or sexuality or masculinity.

    I think the attitudes of you deserve it are clearly there, but equally there are attitudes that the guys who did there are somehow celebrated, pictures of their acts are passed around.
    I think a guy would be demonised if the rape was homosexual. If it was women, I doubt it - he'd be a 'playa'. Though again, it would probably depend on the context - if he was the school geek, then maybe people would rip the piss. If it was men, however, then yes, there would be obvious homophobia, and a lot of this is tied into things feminism should be worried about - gender roles, and what it means to be 'masculine'.

    Either way, I doubt these things happen very often. Maybe they do, I don't know. But I just feel like it's unlikely...I don't think the view of men as sex objects, there for one's instant gratification is prevalent enough amongst women.
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    (Original post by doggyfizzel)
    The method of demonisation is different but I cannot imagine that the person would not receive texts which implicated their blame for their rape. I certainly can imagine the guys being mocked for being weak and less of a man by both sexes. I can't imagine anything else. The fact there isn't a similar case would give insight into such things since from prison and such its well documented men are the victims of rape. Being a victim is the thing being demonised here whether the slur is one of sexual availability or sexuality or masculinity.

    I think the attitudes of you deserve it are clearly there, but equally there are attitudes that the guys who did there are somehow celebrated, pictures of their acts are passed around.
    I can't imagine the guilty verdict and the end of their 'promising careers' being lamented by news anchors. I can't imagine the victim being sent texts soliciting him for sex or calling a slut or telling him he was asking for it which are all things that happened with the Steubenville case. Sure I can imagine him being called a pussy and having his manhood questioned, but if you notice it isn't masculinity or male sexuality that is being demonised in that situation. The abuse would revolve around his perceived femininity. In the end it's still female sexuality and characteristics that are being demonised.
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    (Original post by flying plum)
    I think a guy would be demonised if the rape was homosexual. If it was women, I doubt it - he'd be a 'playa'. Though again, it would probably depend on the context - if he was the school geek, then maybe people would rip the piss. If it was men, however, then yes, there would be obvious homophobia, and a lot of this is tied into things feminism should be worried about - gender roles, and what it means to be 'masculine'.

    Either way, I doubt these things happen very often. Maybe they do, I don't know. But I just feel like it's unlikely...I don't think the view of men as sex objects, there for one's instant gratification is prevalent enough amongst women.
    Rape is a power thing. It's never socially acceptable for a guy to be vulnerable.

    I think if a guy was raped by multiple sexually undesirable girls. I don't think he would be labelled a player. I think the reason it wouldn't be mocked in most situations is mainly because it would be trivialised not because its acceptable.

    I think the reason it happens less is not to do with the objectification of men, it's happens just as much, it's to do with the lack of the social pressure on girls, the part which generates male rapists. The power element is still present in homosexual assault or prison assault of both genders.


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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    I can't imagine the guilty verdict and the end of their 'promising careers' being lamented by news anchors. I can't imagine the victim being sent texts soliciting him for sex or calling a slut or telling him he was asking for it which are all things that happened with the Steubenville case. Sure I can imagine him being called a pussy and having his manhood questioned, but if you notice it isn't masculinity or male sexuality that is being demonised in that situation. The abuse would revolve around his perceived femininity. In the end it's still female sexuality and characteristics that are being demonised.
    I think it would certainly be trivialised in the media, if a QB was raped by the cheer leading team, "he probably enjoyed it and such". I think you've missed it, rape is not about sex, it's about control. Straight men rape men in prison, as with women. Rape is often violent. It's not just sexually motivated. It's not the demonisation of either masculinity or femininity it's to do with being vulnerable. Femininity has a vulnerable component, masculinity cannot ever. It's reinforcement of gender roles from society. The same unacceptability for a men to not be in a position of control is the same that generates the position of control in the attackers side of rape culture.




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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    ... But the Steubenville rapists were found guilty. I don't even know what you're getting at. We're talking about rape victims being shamed and demonised. Did you even click the link?
    Sexual assault and rape have this perceived stigma attached to the victim regardless of sex in my opinion, I do not think that is something just aimed at women, I remember a thread on here of a female teacher who had sex with a vulnerable young boy and there were a significant amount of comments about why weren't they so lucky and that he probably was loving it.

    (Original post by flying plum)
    Oh for goodness sake, it's not just about whether they were found guilty or not. That people stood by and took pictures? That these were then distributed around the school, and people called her a 'slut'? This is all to do with ideas of what women 'should' and 'should not' do, violence against woman and society's response (from both men and women) and EVERYTHING to do with feminism. Perhaps the reason why people think there is no place for feminism is because they clearly do not understand what it is?
    Violence is not limited to 1 sex, I read an article in the Guardian saying that now 40% of domestic violence has a male victim. Men are also in probability more likely to be a victim of a violent attack (Granted males are also more likely to commit a violent crime.) The only violent crime where women suffer more cases than men is sexual assault + rape, why? I'd say the fact more men find women attractive rather than because they see women as objects, if there were more homosexual men than heterosexual I dare say more men would be sexually assaulted than women.
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    (Original post by doggyfizzel)
    I think it would certainly be trivialised in the media, if a QB was raped by the cheer leading team, "he probably enjoyed it and such". I think you've missed it, rape is not about sex, it's about control. Straight men rape men in prison, as with women. Rape is often violent. It's not just sexually
    motivated. It's not the demonisation of either masculinity or femininity it's to do with being vulnerable. Femininity has a vulnerable component, masculinity cannot ever. It's reinforcement of gender roles from society. The same unacceptability for a men to not be in a position of control is the same that generates the position of control in the attackers side of rape culture.




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    Rape is absolutely about power, you're right there. But I'm not talking about why people rape, I'm talking about why victims get treated the way they do by society which is certainly related to perceptions of sexuality. That's why the abuse they receive is almost always a) gendered and b) oriented toward femininity: 'whore', 'slut', or in men's case 'pussy', all these words are about shaming female sexuality.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Rape is absolutely about power, you're right there. But I'm not talking about why people rape, I'm talking about why victims get treated the way they do by society which is certainly related to perceptions of sexuality. That's why the abuse they receive is almost always a) gendered and b) oriented toward femininity: 'whore', 'slut', or in men's case 'pussy', all these words are about shaming female sexuality.
    Well either we can assume rape and its subsequent stigmatisation are not linked or that they are. My belief is that they are linked. I think they are to do with weakness, vulnerability, and control. Those are all intrinsic to femininity and the opposite of masculinity, most insults are going to be gendered or relating a feminine trait, but not all "wimp" or such. A guy who is beaten up is also called a "*****" or "pussy", in a crime with no sexual element, the vulnerability makes him less masculine and hence feminine. I think the sexual element is partly because its a sexual crime and partly because of the nature of the crime and the questions asked about the circumstances.
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    (Original post by doggyfizzel)
    Well either we can assume rape and its subsequent stigmatisation are not linked or that they are. My belief is that they are linked. I think they are to do with weakness, vulnerability, and control. Those are all intrinsic to femininity and the opposite of masculinity, most insults are going to be gendered or relating a feminine trait, but not all "wimp" or such. A guy who is beaten up is also called a "*****" or "pussy", in a crime with no sexual element, the vulnerability makes him less masculine and hence feminine. I think the sexual element is partly because its a sexual crime and partly because of the nature of the crime and the questions asked about the circumstances.
    But female rape victims do not get called 'wimps'. Their weakness or vulnerability is not mocked, their sexuality is. They get told they were 'asking for it' by wearing revealing clothing or they get called sluts. It has nothing to do with victimhood being demonised because in this narrative the victim is the one being blamed. They are told they 'deserved' to be raped, they are not seen as victims at all. Look, ultimately we're talking about two very real, very recent cases where rape victims received torrents of sexually charged, blatantly misogynistic abuse yet you're trying to argue it has nothing to do with sexuality and I really don't understand how you can rationally take that position. It's like you're refusing to see misogyny even it's right there slapping you in the face.
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    (Original post by Idle)
    I'm sorry if there was not enough evidence in a court of law then they are not guilty. Our whole justice system is based on being innocent until proven guilty. I hope they find the evidence to convict whoever but the media are not a jury.
    Your naivety is refreshing. Essentially the whole discipline of criminology has illustrated the legal system to be strongly biased and discriminatory, time and time again. Suggesting that the decision of a 'court of law' is an indication of anything reliable is laughable. This is even if we ignore issues such as how the law itself, and definitions of rape and harrassment, are extremely biased against victims.
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    (Original post by bertstare)
    Feminism is the battle for gender equality.

    We want equality for the genders. This is why we fight to get prison sentences for women increased to match those for men committing equivalent crimes, this is why we fight for domestic abuse against men to be taken as seriously as it is against women, this is why we fight for child custody rights to be equal between men and women, this is why we fight to make it mandatory for women to sign up for the draft, this is why we fight for male genital mutilation to be seen in the same way as female genital mutilation.

    Wait, what?
    I see what you did there
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    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    Your naivety is refreshing. Essentially the whole discipline of criminology has illustrated the legal system to be strongly biased and discriminatory, time and time again. Suggesting that the decision of a 'court of law' is an indication of anything reliable is laughable. This is even if we ignore issues such as how the law itself, and definitions of rape and harrassment, are extremely biased against victims.
    Maybe my wording of my sentence was not the greatest, my point is you can't say they did it as a matter of fact without a conviction. The conviction rate for rape is 58%, the rate of conviction for crimes as an average is 57%.

    Section 1 of the Sexual Offenses Act 2003 states rape is intentional penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth with his penis where the victim does not consent and the defendant does not reasonably believe that the victim consents.

    My question to you would be how would you improve this in a way that is realistic if you see it as a problem?
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    But female rape victims do not get called 'wimps'. Their weakness or vulnerability is not mocked, their sexuality is. They get told they were 'asking for it' by wearing revealing clothing or they get called sluts. It has nothing to do with victimhood being demonised because in this narrative the victim is the one being blamed. They are told they 'deserved' to be raped, they are not seen as victims at all. Look, ultimately we're talking about two very real, very recent cases where rape victims received torrents of sexually charged, blatantly misogynistic abuse yet you're trying to argue it has nothing to do with sexuality and I really don't understand how you can rationally take that position. It's like you're refusing to see misogyny even it's right there slapping you in the face.
    Yes they do, but not in male female rape. Women being weaker than men is not stigmatised. For example I saw a documentary about prisons, female inmates, the common terms used was being someone's momma, being someones *****, being someones little girl. All having connotations of submission, superiority or vulnerability. The deserving line, asking for it, enjoying it, is the same logic and guilt used for male on male sexual abuse, in hetro and homosexual cases, the same used for the previously given adult female teacher student case and even used in childhood abuse. Are all those due to shaming of female sexuality? Or are they there to trivialise or mock vulnerability and feminine traits. I didn't say slut shaming wasn't a part of it, infact I pretty explicitly said it was my last post, I just don't think its the main driver, I think its a tool, one commonly used by other girls. I'm not refusing to see misogyny, I've acknowledged it all the way though my posts, my first, "I think the attitudes of you deserve it are clearly there". I can only see one, quite frankly pathetic, purpose for that barb as it clearly isn't true.

    My argument is you cannot separate masculinity and femininity, you cannot address one without the other, where one is negative the other is positive. It seems illogical to me that rather than see throughout out this being the perpetrator is rooted in masculine themes and the victim being rooted in feminine themes, and the promotion and demotion of such themes. Strong/weak, domination/submission, positive and negative promiscuity. Rather than all these being linked, your argument is the only one that is relevant and the driver is demonisation of female sexuality and that carries though and is hence applicable even in cases where females and sex are not involved? That social drives for rape culture and its subsequent treatment are not related. I can't see how that is a rational position.
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    (Original post by dartanoir)
    It is often seen as a statement against the hyper sexualisation of women's body. For example - why is it okay for men to walk around topless and not for women?
    In Britain modern feminism is a fight against de fact discrimination. We have legal equality, but it's not often enforced. It's more to do with trying to change the public opinion and perception of women and their role in society, as well as trying to change women's opinions of themselves - raising their self image etc.
    On a global scale we are trying to achieve equality for all men and women. For example - in India, Congo, and Iran.
    Of course there are the radicals that bring a bad name to the movement that want female supremacy but we don't listen to them. I use the word 'feminist' very reluctantly when talking about them because feminism is about gender equality. The radicals are 'female supremacists' - there we go, we found a better term.
    Exactly there's a few rotten potatoes that make feminists look like nutters, like the same way there's a few Muslims that make Muslims look like terrorists, which is absolutely not true for example I support feminism, I'm not an active campaigner for it but I think it's right. And although I don't focus on feminism as I'm focusing on other social projects, I still think it's doing good.

    And I agree gender stereotypes are bigoted and highly ignorant, like men can't be a primary carer for a child and a woman can't be a primary breadwinner, 2 words baby formula.



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    (Original post by doggyfizzel)
    Yes they do, but not in male female rape. Women being weaker than men is not stigmatised. For example I saw a documentary about prisons, female inmates, the common terms used was being someone's momma, being someones *****, being someones little girl. All having connotations of submission, superiority or vulnerability. The deserving line, asking for it, enjoying it, is the same logic and guilt used for male on male sexual abuse, in hetro and homosexual cases, the same used for the previously given adult female teacher student case and even used in childhood abuse. Are all those due to shaming of female sexuality? Or are they there to trivialise or mock vulnerability and feminine traits. I didn't say slut shaming wasn't a part of it, infact I pretty explicitly said it was my last post, I just don't think its the main driver, I think its a tool, one commonly used by other girls. I'm not refusing to see misogyny, I've acknowledged it all the way though my posts, my first, "I think the attitudes of you deserve it are clearly there". I can only see one, quite frankly pathetic, purpose for that barb as it clearly isn't true.

    My argument is you cannot separate masculinity and femininity, you cannot address one without the other, where one is negative the other is positive. It seems illogical to me that rather than see throughout out this being the perpetrator is rooted in masculine themes and the victim being rooted in feminine themes, and the promotion and demotion of such themes. Strong/weak, domination/submission, positive and negative promiscuity. Rather than all these being linked, your argument is the only one that is relevant and the driver is demonisation of female sexuality and that carries though and is hence applicable even in cases where females and sex are not involved? That social drives for rape culture and its subsequent treatment are not related. I can't see how that is a rational position.
    They aren't the same, though. I've never seen a male rape victim get shamed the same way as a female rape victim. Being called a ***** or a pussy is different to being told you deserved it or called a slut. The man is shamed for his lack of masculinity, i.e. his femininity, while the woman is shamed for her sexuality and apparent promiscuity. My original point was that the concept of masculinity is never the subject of shaming while femininity is, and this leads to serious problems with how rape cases are viewed and how victims are treated, as we saw in Steubenville. Rape is unique in this regard, victims of other crimes are never treated with such stigma, and from the abuse I've seen thrown the way of victims the key factor in this seems to be the demonisation of female sexuality, which is hardly a new thing; it's been present in various forms for centuries.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    They aren't the same, though. I've never seen a male rape victim get shamed the same way as a female rape victim. Being called a ***** or a pussy is different to being told you deserved it or called a slut. The man is shamed for his lack of masculinity, i.e. his femininity, while the woman is shamed for her sexuality and apparent promiscuity. My original point was that the concept of masculinity is never the subject of shaming while femininity is, and this leads to serious problems with how rape cases are viewed and how victims are treated, as we saw in Steubenville. Rape is unique in this regard, victims of other crimes are never treated with such stigma, and from the abuse I've seen thrown the way of victims the key factor in this seems to be the demonisation of female sexuality, which is hardly a new thing; it's been present in various forms for centuries.
    That's why feminism is still quite socially important, even today....

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    (Original post by dartanoir)
    It is often seen as a statement against the hyper sexualisation of women's body. For example - why is it okay for men to walk around topless and not for women?
    Man's not going to go into the rest of the post. But the thing I don't like about topfreedom isn't the topless women, rather its the women who'd walk around topless and complain if someone were to comment on her tits.

    Topfreedom comes with consequences (I realise the same goes for men as I see some get insulted for being too fat or thin, but its not really as rampant as being topless and a women) and people are bound to be attracted. Hell some people say it's natural to be attracted to boobs (if you're into women). Don't get me wrong though I'm not saying if they're out then everyone's got a chance to touch them, that's just wrong.
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    (Original post by bottled)
    Man's not going to go into the rest of the post. But the thing I don't like about topfreedom isn't the topless women, rather its the women who'd walk around topless and complain if someone were to comment on her tits.

    Topfreedom comes with consequences (I realise the same goes for men as I see some get insulted for being too fat or thin, but its not really as rampant as being topless and a women) and people are bound to be attracted. Hell some people say it's natural to be attracted to boobs (if you're into women). Don't get me wrong though I'm not saying if they're out then everyone's got a chance to touch them, that's just wrong.
    Oh I think any woman realises that by going out topless she would attract a lot of unwanted attention. Many women aren't bothered by it. I think they just want to have the freedom - the option - of being able to do so.

    Edit: Not sure why I referred to women as 'them' in stead of 'us'.. haha.
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    (Original post by dartanoir)
    Oh I think any woman realises that by going out topless she would attract a lot of unwanted attention. Many women aren't bothered by it. I think they just want to have the freedom - the option - of being able to do so.

    Edit: Not sure why I referred to women as 'them' in stead of 'us'.. haha.
    I don't think it's illegal, but it's definitely stigmatized.

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