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    (Original post by Hanvyj)
    Santa is a bit of a bad example because its an active deception. But it is based on observation (cookies/carrots disappearing and presents appearing labelled from santa).
    No sarcasm intended. I really didn't know this. Of course, I'll search for evidence on my own before believing your statement.

    Did you invent it and know it was a lie when you were a child? I didn't, I was told it, and made the above observations. Most children believe it until a certain age, where more likely than not their parents tell them the truth, or other children who got told the truth tell them.
    No. Very few people bother about Santa on a tropical island.

    What observations have you made of Jinn? (Just out of curiosity - I don't think you will be able to persuade me they exist even if you saw one dancing in front of you)
    Oh wait. Whatever you believe is none of my onions. If my intention was to persuade anyone Jinns existed, I'd have harped about them in my first post itself.

    I didn't myself, at first, believed they existed. Simply because I had never met one.

    Hm, do you really want to hear me saying I watched them dancing or are you just waiting for a chance to pounce on me once I've related the story? If yes, don't bother. I really don't care enough to try to make you change your beliefs about them. If no, then I might just share for the sake of satisfying curiosity.

    Personally I think most ghost (and like phenomena) are just humans being human. We have evolved to get paranoid (so we don't get eaten by predators) and our senses are not really that reliable (hell, we have hallucinogenic like experiences most nights when we go to sleep).
    If we had to go by that logic, my first ghosts should've been sharks, crocodiles, and anacondas. I don't fear Jinns as much as I fear those animals.

    There is also the fact that there is no photogenic evidence for any of this stuff other than some easily hoaxed blurry over-exposed grainy photo-shop jobs. It is all subjective and 'flawed' human experiences.
    Now, I think everyone who approached the subject in a logical, or at least pseudo-logical, manner said Jinns were invisible.

    PS: What has Homo heidelbergensis got to do with anything? I looked it up, why would I not 'believe' in an early ancestor to humans?
    You've never seen it with your eyes, then why should you believe it? Why should you even believe scientists discovered it? It is their own observation, not yours. They might have invented a big lie to seek fame.

    *Obviously, sarcasm up there*

    Okay, what I was trying to say is that you believe Santa doesn't exist because people have told you it was a lie, and they invented it. Does that justify Santa doesn't exist? What if I tell you there is no such animal as a squirrel, and it is just a legend I invented to scare off children from stealing nuts-- would you believe me?

    We are facing an incisive dichotomy here. You have seen something, so it exists (albeit for you only). But you haven’t seen something doesn’t mean it does not exist.

    In a multi-dimensional universe, it is much more humble, cautious and truer to say "I don't know" than "it doesn't exist".
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    (Original post by skumgummi)
    This sums up this entire thread.
    To my knowledge*, brah.

    Scientific proof might exist. I have no idea.
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    I do not believe in anything paranormal. In fact, if I was to define the word "paranormal" myself, my choice of words would be something like "that which, in all probability, doesn't exist".

    I do, however, believe that aliens exist, purely as a result of the statistical likelihood that they do: life has come into existence in this tiny corner of an immeasurably vast universe, and, given its immeasurable vastness, it would be very surprising if something comparable hasn't come into existence elsewhere. Do I believe they have visited the Earth? No. Believing that aliens have come such a vast distance just to kidnap the rednecks of Nebraska and insert probes into their rectum is incomparably silly.
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    http://lesswrong.com/lw/i4/belief_in_belief/
    (Original post by Hanvyj)
    The only way you could disprove it…
    If I were to create an upload of my brain, neuron by neuron (modelled in a computer) so that the modelled brain was indistinguishable from reality (assume my computer is powerful enough), and it turned out to behave indistinguishably from me, and the simulation were running at the same time as I was living (so there's two of me, one in a computer-simulated world), would that cause you to change your view that the soul exists? (given that in this scenario it seems to be perfectly replicable)
    I'm not saying that I could carry out this experiment, by the way; I'm presenting some evidence that one day we *might* be able to gather, and asking what your reaction to that evidence would be, per the Least Convenient Possible World. http://lesswrong.com/lw/2k/the_least...ossible_world/
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    (Original post by Alpha510)
    To my knowledge*, brah.

    Scientific proof might exist. I have no idea.
    No, it does not.
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    As a Muslim I have to believe in both the existence of jinns and aliens.
    Aliens I'm quite not sure but Jinns I'm certainly am sure they exist, after witnessing some extra ordinary "paranormal stuff".
    And angels too.

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    (Original post by Alpha510)
    I only think of them as one of the millions of species on Earth. We can't see bacteria with the naked eye, so without the proper apparatus to determine their presence, we wouldn't believe in their existence.
    So if we don't have the ability to observe them, why do you believe they exist? What apparatus are you using to see these invisible creatures?

    (Original post by Alpha510)
    If the Jinn phenomenon was less based on observation and more of a Santa Claus story, perhaps I wouldn't believe it either.
    Were they not made up in the Koran?
    Children are told about Father Christmas by their parents (or someone else); in the same vein, I imagine you were told about these jinn by your parents, or by other Muslims.

    How do you know that the stories about the Jinn are more legitimate than the stories about Father Christmas?

    (Original post by Alpha510)
    I found one point interesting. It is mentioned in the first article that Jinns are not visible, but they have weight. Perhaps, that could lead to some extended scientific research?
    Have you seen the film Die Another Day? The cameras on Bond's car capture the environment, and that is then projected on to the coating of the car, making it appear invisible. So while the car retains its mass, it appears invisible because of its transparent colour.

    Ergo, it's possible for something to have both transparency and mass. But you'd still be able to bump into a transparent Jinn.
    If you can't touch them, then not only would they be invisible, but they would be massless.

    (Original post by Alpha510)
    Oh wait. Whatever you believe is none of my onions. If my intention was to persuade anyone Jinns existed, I'd have harped about them in my first post itself.
    I have to wonder why you're arguing on this forum...


    (Original post by Alpha510)
    Hm, do you really want to hear me saying I watched them dancing or are you just waiting for a chance to pounce on me once I've related the story? If yes, don't bother. I really don't care enough to try to make you change your beliefs about them. If no, then I might just share for the sake of satisfying curiosity.
    I'd be interested to hear how you experienced them, and I assume the poster asking would be too.


    (Original post by Alpha510)
    You've never seen it with your eyes, then why should you believe it? Why should you even believe scientists discovered it? It is their own observation, not yours. They might have invented a big lie to seek fame.
    The evidence for scientific discoveries, by its very nature, is available for everyone to observer. If it wasn't, then it wouldn't be scientific.
    We can understand the evidence as non-scientists.

    And bear in mind that scientific reports are peer-reviewed, and anything that gets its way into the scientific community is rigorously tested. If it was made up, then hundreds of thousands of scientists must have been conspiring against us, trying to deceive us. I frankly think that unlikely.


    (Original post by Alpha510)
    Okay, what I was trying to say is that you believe Santa doesn't exist because people have told you it was a lie, and they invented it. Does that justify Santa doesn't exist? What if I tell you there is no such animal as a squirrel, and it is just a legend I invented to scare off children from stealing nuts-- would you believe me?
    I wouldn't believe you, because we can prove that squirrels exist, whereas we cannot say the same for jinn.
    If you can show that squirrels are non-existent, then I'm happy to take you seriously.

    (Original post by Alpha510)
    We are facing an incisive dichotomy here. You have seen something, so it exists (albeit for you only). But you haven’t seen something doesn’t mean it does not exist.
    Nor does it mean that you should believe it.

    My question to you is this:

    You are insistent that jinn are invisible, yet you claim to have experienced them. If you have experienced what you consider to be a paranormal situation, why is it explained by the jinn instead of the billions of other possible supernatural entities?
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    (Original post by StUdEnTIGCSE)
    As a Muslim I have to believe in both the existence of jinns and aliens.
    Aliens I'm quite not sure but Jinns I'm certainly am sure they exist, after witnessing some extra ordinary "paranormal stuff".
    And angels too.

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    There is no "have to believe something"; either you do believe, or you don't, or you are unsure (but to be properly unsure, you have to have either "conflicting evidence" or "no evidence but a good reason to suspect the thing is true"). You can believe that you believe something, although you may be wrong (think about what you would predict based upon what you think you believe, and then about what you would actually predict, in a given scenario created to test the truth of the thing). The usual example is the invisible dragon in my garage; I fervently assert its existence, but as soon as you suggest going there and touching it, I know I'll have to explain the fact that I can't touch it, so I say it's an unfeelable dragon. I know I'll have to explain the fact that I can't hear it, so I say it doesn't breathe - etc. I believe that I believe there is a dragon, but my actual beliefs predict that there is no dragon (because I know in advance exactly what the results of the tests will be).
    Either you are a Muslim who believes everything you are told to believe (including things like "the earth is flat" - http://www.islam-watch.org/Logical/P...th-is-Flat.htm was the first hit on my search engine), or you accept that the writer(s) of the Quran were wrong on some points. It is not for me to say here what those points are, but it is clearly true that either the Quran is correct on all counts (even those that are clearly wrong), or it is wrong on some counts. Once you have this second possibility, it is clear that "having to believe" something is just not right, because you've made a judgement already that the Quran is wrong somewhere, so why not other places?
    I've written this assuming you accept that the Earth is spheroid; if you don't, consider mountains as buttresses against earthquakes or something. ("And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves; (16:15)
    And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance. (21:31)" was grabbed from the Interwebs)
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    (Original post by Smaug123)
    http://lesswrong.com/lw/i4/belief_in_belief/

    If I were to create an upload of my brain, neuron by neuron (modelled in a computer) so that the modelled brain was indistinguishable from reality (assume my computer is powerful enough), and it turned out to behave indistinguishably from me, and the simulation were running at the same time as I was living (so there's two of me, one in a computer-simulated world), would that cause you to change your view that the soul exists? (given that in this scenario it seems to be perfectly replicable)
    I'm not saying that I could carry out this experiment, by the way; I'm presenting some evidence that one day we *might* be able to gather, and asking what your reaction to that evidence would be, per the Least Convenient Possible World. http://lesswrong.com/lw/2k/the_least...ossible_world/
    Truely, Honestly, (if you could do it perfectly and simulate hormones etc) I think you would be creating a copy of your conciousness. The computer would be another you. I don't think there is a substance or soul that contained your personality or memories that wouldn't get transferred over.

    My reasoning for this (though part of it is probably just an irrational belief too):

    1) There is little/no evidence for this soul thingy
    2) When people suffer damage to the brain (accident/altzhiemers etc) they loose memories and change personality

    So unless the damage to the brain mirrored very similar damage to the sould thing too then it shows that our selves are made up of our brain structure.
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    (Original post by Hanvyj)
    Truely, Honestly, (if you could do it perfectly and simulate hormones etc) I think you would be creating a copy of your conciousness. The computer would be another you. I don't think there is a substance or soul that contained your personality or memories that wouldn't get transferred over.

    My reasoning for this (though part of it is probably just an irrational belief too):

    1) There is little/no evidence for this soul thingy
    2) When people suffer damage to the brain (accident/altzhiemers etc) they loose memories and change personality

    So unless the damage to the brain mirrored very similar damage to the sould thing too then it shows that our selves are made up of our brain structure.
    Ah, that's my belief too 2) is my primary reason for this. I read your post and assumed you believed in the soul, and wrote accordingly.
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    (Original post by QueenAmora)
    I believe in the Jinn, which are creatures made of fire and smoke who live on Earth with us and are invisible, (so its somewhat similar to the concept of ghosts) but only the Jinn are not dead people who have come back to life.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Ahh Jinn stories, many a night has been spent telling scary stories and encounters with them.

    I think of the paranormal as extra-dimensional beings, we as humans can not yet perceive :eek:
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    (Original post by Smaug123)
    There is no "have to believe something"; either you do believe, or you don't, or you are unsure (but to be properly unsure, you have to have either "conflicting evidence" or "no evidence but a good reason to suspect the thing is true"). You can believe that you believe something, although you may be wrong (think about what you would predict based upon what you think you believe, and then about what you would actually predict, in a given scenario created to test the truth of the thing). The usual example is the invisible dragon in my garage; I fervently assert its existence, but as soon as you suggest going there and touching it, I know I'll have to explain the fact that I can't touch it, so I say it's an unfeelable dragon. I know I'll have to explain the fact that I can't hear it, so I say it doesn't breathe - etc. I believe that I believe there is a dragon, but my actual beliefs predict that there is no dragon (because I know in advance exactly what the results of the tests will be).
    Either you are a Muslim who believes everything you are told to believe (including things like "the earth is flat" - http://www.islam-watch.org/Logical/P...th-is-Flat.htm was the first hit on my search engine), or you accept that the writer(s) of the Quran were wrong on some points. It is not for me to say here what those points are, but it is clearly true that either the Quran is correct on all counts (even those that are clearly wrong), or it is wrong on some counts. Once you have this second possibility, it is clear that "having to believe" something is just not right, because you've made a judgement already that the Quran is wrong somewhere, so why not other places?
    I've written this assuming you accept that the Earth is spheroid; if you don't, consider mountains as buttresses against earthquakes or something. ("And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves; (16:15)
    And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance. (21:31)" was grabbed from the Interwebs)
    I don't understand your last point but the "Quran" says that God has MADE FOR YOU (that it it appears as so )the earth has a carpet a blessing (so you won't fall out lol a carpet can be folded etc etc).
    How many times has the Quran say that the night and the day merging with each other is a sign. Try to simulate the gradual slow process of dawn and dusk with a flat surface and a lamp.
    And a carpet can be folded around a sphere or an earth shaped object. Its a sign that even though the planet is round you can go through roads. EDIT : on the subject of flat earth.

    Stay on the topic plus post the verses you are referring to not anti Islamic websites.

    I've no time for a debate so stay so.


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    (Original post by StUdEnTIGCSE)
    Stay on the topic plus post the verses you are referring to not anti Islamic websites.
    I may have phrased this badly - I'm not trying to quote an irrefutable example of something the Quran says that is wrong, merely to show that such an example exists. All that is required for my argument is that the Quran says one thing that is wrong. Actually identifying that thing was secondary to my main point, which was that your actual beliefs are dictated by your experience of the world; while you may believe that you believe in the existence of jinn, you can't use that belief to make predictions about the world, and it's insufficient evidence to say "they exist because the Quran says so" because the Quran says something wrong.
    If, however, you believe the Quran is infallible in every respect, then my argument is irrelevant to you.
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    (Original post by Alpha510)
    No sarcasm intended. I really didn't know this. Of course, I'll search for evidence on my own before believing your statement
    ....
    No. Very few people bother about Santa on a tropical island.
    Here in the UK pretty much every kid is told about Santa and a big deal is made about it every Christmas - I didn't think that it wasn't for you, its understandable that you never believed it then (it is really stupid).

    (Original post by Alpha510)
    Oh wait. Whatever you believe is none of my onions. If my intention was to persuade anyone Jinns existed, I'd have harped about them in my first post itself.

    I didn't myself, at first, believed they existed. Simply because I had never met one.
    I wasn't saying you were being all pushy, sorry if you got that impression! Like you said, you aren't trying to persuade me at all I'm just interested that's all.

    (Original post by Alpha510)
    Hm, do you really want to hear me saying I watched them dancing or are you just waiting for a chance to pounce on me once I've related the story?

    If yes, don't bother. I really don't care enough to try to make you change your beliefs about them. If no, then I might just share for the sake of satisfying curiosity.
    I'm just genuinely curious (especially now you have said they are invisible), sorry if it came across as rude

    (Original post by Alpha510)
    If we had to go by that logic, my first ghosts should've been sharks, crocodiles, and anacondas. I don't fear Jinns as much as I fear those animals.
    Hmm, Most people I've heard talk about seeing ghosts have done so in kind of dark, creepy places that tend to make people scared, at night etc.

    I think we, in general, fear the unknown/death (as in the concept, rather than the specific means that cause it) more than things like sharks etc. If you have a look at the stories we tell each other to scare - we don't often tell of animal attacks or car crashes (what is probably most likely to kill me) we talk about things that creep us out and are more weird like ghosts etc. It's the same if you look at mythology, all the 'scary' myths are about really weird/odd things.

    I'm not sure what I said applies to your Jinns anyway - as it sounds like they aren't the kind of scary, seen in the dark out of the corner of your eye ghost type thing (you mentioned they are invisible for one).

    (Original post by Alpha510)
    You've never seen it with your eyes, then why should you believe it? Why should you even believe scientists discovered it? It is their own observation, not yours. They might have invented a big lie to seek fame.

    *Obviously, sarcasm up there*
    But there is reasonable evidence, that I could go see (bones etc) and the scientific papers have been peer reviewed by a very well established system.

    If someone came up to me and said "I just found the skeleton of an early pre-historic human in my back garden". I would be sceptical. If I read in a scientific journal, with photos and a museum exhibit, I would be more inclined to believe it but I still wouldn't take it as gospel there have been plenty of hoaxes in the past!.

    (Original post by Alpha510)
    Okay, what I was trying to say is that you believe Santa doesn't exist because people have told you it was a lie, and they invented it. Does that justify Santa doesn't exist?
    Them telling me Santa doesn't exist didn't make me automatically believe it - but it caused me to scrutinise the evidence more. Clearly they stopped 'pretending' and I watched them wrap the 'santa' presents etc and as I grew older I could see that it was a rather silly idea. So no, I don't think I just stopped believing it because someone told me.

    I don't doubt that if a friend my age in school told me I would have been less inclined to believe him than my parents.

    (Original post by Alpha510)
    What if I tell you there is no such animal as a squirrel, and it is just a legend I invented to scare off children from stealing nuts-- would you believe me?
    But I have seen a squirrel, and you were not the one to tell me of their existence.

    If you told me about some creature in your native land that I hadn't heard of and persuaded me they existed somehow and then a week later told me that you made it up and photo-shopped the pictures (or whatever) etc then yes, I probably would believe that you had made it up, you could certainly persuade me it was a practical joke.

    (Original post by Alpha510)
    We are facing an incisive dichotomy here. You have seen something, so it exists (albeit for you only). But you haven’t seen something doesn’t mean it does not exist.
    True, I'm in the situation of trying to 'prove' a negative.

    Not that I am trying to prove anything really, I clearly can't say you haven't seen/experienced what you have so I don't think I would be able to if I tried.

    (Original post by Alpha510)
    In a multi-dimensional universe, it is much more humble, cautious and truer to say "I don't know" than "it doesn't exist".
    Hmm, I use to things to counter this argument.

    1) The invisible pink unicorn - i.e. I could apply that argument to anything. Anything could exist, we don't really know, it's just with no evidence (in my view) the chances are pretty small (in my view).

    2) I am going to assume the thing with the largest chance of being true is 'true' for all intents and purposes

    So basically, I'm going to assume that there are no ghosts, pink unicorns *sarcastic*, heaven or omnipotent invisible beings until I see something that makes them more likely that the default of their non existence.

    Of course, we don't really know anything for certain, but its silly to be that cautious.

    You may hold the same logic! but your experiences with Jinn have obviously raised the chances of their existing for you.

    Anyway, sorry if I came/come across as rude or something - Its a difficult thing to kind of discuss without that happening for me lol I'm trying!
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    (Original post by Alpha510)
    No. Very few people bother about Santa on a tropical island.
    And very few people who have never been exposed to Islam believe in Djinns. I fail to see the distinction.

    You've never seen it with your eyes, then why should you believe it? Why should you even believe scientists discovered it? It is their own observation, not yours. They might have invented a big lie to seek fame.

    *Obviously, sarcasm up there*
    The existence of Homo heidelbergensis has been verified empirically, and its existence can be verified by any individual by methods other than simply asking a scientist. You could, for example, go and find this guy. That situation is not comparable with the complete lack of any sound evidence for Djinns, which is odd, considering they are alleged to have an appreciable impact on the modern world.

    Okay, what I was trying to say is that you believe Santa doesn't exist because people have told you it was a lie, and they invented it. Does that justify Santa doesn't exist? What if I tell you there is no such animal as a squirrel, and it is just a legend I invented to scare off children from stealing nuts-- would you believe me?
    That would be a reasonable conclusion, yes, if you had seen or heard of no evidence that squirrels exist in the meantime.

    We are facing an incisive dichotomy here. You have seen something, so it exists (albeit for you only). But you haven’t seen something doesn’t mean it does not exist.

    In a multi-dimensional universe, it is much more humble, cautious and truer to say "I don't know" than "it doesn't exist".
    But when there is an absolute lack of evidence for something, and reasonable alternate explanations are around which explain things with far more efficacy than before, then there is no good reason for sticking to that belief either. I am generally agnostic about these questions - I don't truly know whether gods or any other supernatural phenomena exist. That doesn't stop me not believing in them though, as they are generally absurd, outdated explanations for phenomena which can be understood using other, more rational modes of thought.

    You're drawing a false dichotomy between saying "I don't know" and "I don't believe". I would say "I don't believe but I don't know" to most of these questions, though some (djinns included) I would dismiss out of hand, because their existence explains precisely nothing that cannot be explained rationally.
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    (Original post by Alpha510)
    I only think of them as one of the millions of species on Earth. We can't see bacteria with the naked eye, so without the proper apparatus to determine their presence, we wouldn't believe in their existence.
    Nope.

    And of course, that's not even taking into consideration the fact that colonies of bacteria are easily visible to the naked eye.
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    (Original post by QueenAmora)
    What is your opinion on the other world, do you believe in paranormal beings living amongst us or think it's just stories made up for our entertainment.

    I believe in the Jinn, which are creatures made of fire and smoke who live on Earth with us and are invisible, (so its somewhat similar to the concept of ghosts) but only the Jinn are not dead people who have come back to life.

    All opinions are welcome. I'm just curious to know what others make of possessions, black magic, aliens etc ..



    Posted from TSR Mobile

    It is also my Religion (Spiritualist), I have seen so many things with my own eyes that I absolutely agree 100% that the soul and paranormal phenomena does exist

    May I ask what your Religion is?
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    (Original post by QueenAmora)
    What is your opinion on the other world, do you believe in paranormal beings living amongst us or think it's just stories made up for our entertainment.
    I believe in the Jinn, which are creatures made of fire and smoke who live on Earth with us and are invisible, (so its somewhat similar to the concept of ghosts) but only the Jinn are not dead people who have come back to life.
    All opinions are welcome. I'm just curious to know what others make of possessions, black magic, aliens etc ..
    I don't believe in any of it - fairies, jinns, angels, deities, Father Christmas, ...

    I'm willing to believe in aliens, but not that they're constantly visiting us without us knowing.
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    (Original post by QueenAmora)
    What is your opinion on the other world, do you believe in paranormal beings living amongst us or think it's just stories made up for our entertainment.

    I believe in the Jinn, which are creatures made of fire and smoke who live on Earth with us and are invisible, (so its somewhat similar to the concept of ghosts) but only the Jinn are not dead people who have come back to life.

    All opinions are welcome. I'm just curious to know what others make of possessions, black magic, aliens etc ..



    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Hey, just to let you know that there isn't just one type of Jinn, there is an whole family tree of them. Firstly they are classified as either extraterrestrial beings (Aliens) or extra dimensional beings (demons, ghosts etc). And then split in to categories and sub categories and further on. People who claim that have contact with Jinn are just fooling themselves, as they think that they are in control however its really the Jinn who are in control. Like humans, they are good Jinns and bad Jinns. The good Jinns however stay at their place and have no contact with us, but bad Jinns are the ones that try cross over to our world, and that is when they try to corrupt and use us.

    I hope this information is useful.
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    (Original post by QueenAmora)
    What is your opinion on the other world, do you believe in paranormal beings living amongst us or think it's just stories made up for our entertainment...
    Humans have been trying to explain their world (to themselves and others) for a long, long time, but only recently has a coherent and reliable methodology emerged in the form of critical science allowing us to disentangle what is reasonable and plausible, and fits the empirical evidence, and what isn't and doesn't. Prior to the ascendancy of scientific method magical and mystical explanations were the best available, but now we can do much better. After all, anyone can offer up any kind of explanation and present it as true - so we have to have a way of determining our response that isn't just a flip of a coin or whatever takes our fancy. Other than that some people still prefer mysterious and romantic explanations, no matter how implausible from a critical scientific perspective.
 
 
 
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