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do grammar schools give students a fair or unfair advantage for places like uni etc. watch

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    It gives them a huge advantage, but it is not an unfair one. In fact the grammar school actually can help working class kids who otherwise wouldn't be able to receive a good education because they cannot afford private school.

    Yes, there are technical issues with parents paying for tutoring for their kids which reduces the meritocratic aspect but that is a problem with the process not the general idea which I support.

    The opposition to grammar schools however is completely misguided and usually based on either jealously or due to political motives (Labour) , if anything it is ironic that the left do not support a way in which those at the bottom of society could work their way up.
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    (Original post by ThatPerson)
    Do you have evidence of this? It's a common view so I'm curious.
    If the poster means tutoring rather than brown envelopes to the headmaster:-

    http://www.suttontrust.com/news/news...ivate-tuition/
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    I personally go to a grammar school, so I'm probably biased, but I think more grammar schools are needed. The only thing that's unfair about grammar schools is the lack of them; not everyone has the opportunity to go. As to whether you've reached your 'academic potential' by age 11, I would argue that the testing system needs to change to a more modern, less 'memory-based' test, ie a test that you can't particularly be tutored for as it simply tests how smart you are, rather than whether you can remember how to do a particular maths problem or verbal reasoning method.
    If the testing was more fair and also there were more grammar schools so everyone bright enough could go, there shouldn't be any problem. In my opinion, people who aren't in the top 35-25% of the ability range shouldn't really be going to universities anyway, and technical or sporting colleges could cater for people with less academic ability, so that if you're talented in something else you can be stretched to your full potential.
    The problem with the schooling system is that everyone is being pushed to do very well academically and go to university for the sake of league tables, when in reality not everyone has the ability to do this and are being stretched to do well in exams far more than is needed or they can cope with. In reality, not everyone is smart and trying to put smarter kids with less intelligent kids and teaching them the same things and encouraging them to push themselves in the same areas is never going to work.


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    I think grammar schools aren't the problem, comprehensives are usually quite poor, I think comp schools should strive to teach kids just as well as a private/grammar school does.
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    (Original post by jay12345man)
    (I go to a grammar school so i may be biased) i was reading a petition online to abolish grammar schools because it gives students an unfair advantage and causes emotional distress to those who fail the 11+.

    But the way I see it is that people who pass the 11+ are more academic and don't have to be held back by going to a comp. Also it allows people who maybe aren't very wealthy to get a good education without splashing out on a private school.
    we've just been studying this in our sociology lesson today! what a coincidence... some people think that middle class parent's who have the money tutor their in preparation of the 11 plus exam which therefore puts working class children a less chance of getting into a grammar school as their parents wouldn't tutor them which then as a result puts middle class at a higher advantage because they're more likely to get a place and the working class children at a disadvantage because they're not prepared for the test and not offered a place at a grammar school to show how much potential they have compared to middle class children
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    (Original post by DudeBoy)
    comprehensives are usually quite poor,
    What an over-generaliation

    There are MANY excellent comprehensives

    (not so much in Grammar School areas, of course)
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    Is eleven old enough to decide whether they go to grammar school? I know people that went to grammar school and whilst some are very intelligent whereas some are less intelligent than people I know that went to a comprehensive. Also at 10/11 a one off exam that essentially decides your future seems extreme.

    I did take my 11 plus and I did go to a comprehensive. At the time I took my 11 plus I had just been ripped from my primary school and friends and relocated to a different town as my parents had split up. Would I have passed if this hadn't have happened (failed by four marks)? I don't know but my point is everyone can have a bad day.

    I personally am in favour of schools where there are 'grammar sets.' The academic get the support they need and the less so don't feel as segregated by only going to a 'comprehensive.' It has never really bothered me but I know some people are a little intimidated when they go up against grammar students in interviews and the like.
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    All the people I know that went to grammar schools had tutors or parents who regularly did those types of tests.
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    Would going to a grammar school disadvantage you in getting into a UNIQ or Sutton Trust Summer School??
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    At the same time I am in favour of grammar schools.
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    I'm assuming all you's are English? Talking about English Grammar schools? Because Grammar schools here in NI are nothing like that....
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    (Original post by jay12345man)
    (I go to a grammar school so i may be biased) i was reading a petition online to abolish grammar schools because it gives students an unfair advantage and causes emotional distress to those who fail the 11+.

    But the way I see it is that people who pass the 11+ are more academic and don't have to be held back by going to a comp. Also it allows people who maybe aren't very wealthy to get a good education without splashing out on a private school.
    I think you've answered your own question here. If you consider people to be held back at a comprehensive school, then they're probably going to have a disadvantage at university.

    On the other hand, I think this only really applies to a comparison of an average student in both schools. If a student's been to a comp and done exceptionally well, then they might make themselves stand out even more. (As in, it wouldn't be such a big deal if they came from a grammar school).
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    (Original post by TenOfThem)
    As do many students

    Do you imagine that everyone who does not go to Grammar School is either disruptive or disinterested
    no what i mean is that if someone has made a choice to go to a grammar school they are more likely to be focused on work and be less disruptive.
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    (Original post by TenOfThem)
    I used to chat on a parent chat room ... the number of Home Counties parents who "buy" grammar school places and are very open about it is scary

    Also, I used to teach at a school that was 2nd choice for students "failing" the 11+ in the neighbouring county ... parents who could not believe that their money had not been enough to ensure a place
    Are you literally implying money changes hands for these places?

    Grammar schools are as mixed as any, as attested to by myself and others on this thread. Any parents with substantial money who wish to spend it on education would surely send their children to a well funded private school anyway.
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    Northern Ireland practices academic selection and grammar schools as standard, and year on year we obtain higher average GCSE and A Level results than England and Wales.

    Where I'm from grammar schools push smart kids to further themselves and to get them into good unis, and high schools are more equipped to help those who struggle. Those who perform well at GCSE in their high school have the opportunity to apply to a grammar school for A Levels, whilst those who maybe aren't so academic are helped into apprenticeships and jobs.

    The practice of "buying" your way in doesn't happen in NI, because there are plenty of grammar school places to go around, and the non-grammar schools are still good schools, just with different teaching methods.

    sources:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19348742
    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-28782661.html
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    My grammar school took lots of new students for sixth form. Not all is decided at 11+
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    I go to a grammar school and I know for a fact that there are a lot better students around the surrounding schools, hell you need 4 B's and 4 C'a to get in mine for a level but how some people got during year 7 baffles me (including 2 who didn't even get 5 )

    I don't nesserily believe cause I go to one, means I'm smarter than everyone. My gcses are sub average and the teachers also, but what I noticed is that the majority put a hell a lot of effort into outside learning especially if we have a bad teacher.


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    I didn't pass my 11+, but i got into my grammar school through the appeal process.
    I can 100% say that i would not be predicted A*AA at a level if i'd have gone to the next local school (something ridiculous, like a 32% GCSE A*-C in 5 subjects). The teaching and environment a grammar school, on average, provides excels that of a comp. However, Unis are more likely to be impressed by someone who is predicted my grades at a comp school than by myself, they're aware that they may in fact be a much more focused, independent and hard working student. So, it's a tricky one
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    I am not sure that you can look at this in the abstract. A certain number of grammar schools exist. There seems little likelihood of a change to the status quo. Abolishing grammar schools would send out all of the wrong signals for Labour and the Conservatives, over 40 years, have set their face against creating new ones.

    It might be interesting to think for a moment about that. Margaret Thatcher in a speech to the Party Conference noted that Tory activists would come the Conference full of fire and brimstone about the loss of grammar schools but then, as local councillors, they would abolish the ones in their areas. The reasons were threefold; grammar schools were unpopular with the parents whose children didn't get in (and there really was no alternative to the local secondary modern for the vast majority of pupils who failed the 11+), a grammar school/secondary modern system is more expensive to run and the Sex Discrimination Act was about to mean that equal grammar school opportunities had to be given to girl where previously there were fewer places for girls.

    Whilst there is almost certainly a corporate memory of this in the Conservative Party, there must be more to it. One wonders if private opinion polling asking more searching questions than "do you want to bring back grammar schools?" shows that such a policy is still a vote loser?
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    (Original post by jay12345man)
    no what i mean is that if someone has made a choice to go to a grammar school they are more likely to be focused on work and be less disruptive.
    more likely than someone who wanted to go but couldn't?

    more likely than everyone who is limited in ability ?
 
 
 
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