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What are the conditions required for a body of matter to be conscious? Watch

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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    But what youre forgetting is that humans are unpredictable. It is not even possible to measure anything including sub-atomic particles without altering its behaviour.
    But we can measure anything bigger than subatomic particles without noticeably altering its behaviour, and you could equally say that humans are extremely predictable (that's what psychology is all about).
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    Do you love your parents? Do you love you gf/bf? If so then give me your evidence for it, can you give me evidence? The thing people are most hungry for, which is meaning, is the one thing science hasn't been able to give them
    I don't quite see how it is relevant, however, neuroscience will explain the physical process of love. That would count as evidence.

    Science isn't concerned with meaning, but truth; you not liking that truth is frankly irrelevant to everything. I think that 'meaning' is possible while also knowing the truth about the world. Deluding yourself into comforting beliefs is not necessary nor helpful to you or anyone else.


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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    What is the definition of acting rational though? And who taught you that it was quack because it seems to be deep within your belief system..unless you experience it yourself how can you judge.. I understand and appreciate your opinions, im not here to interrogate and im okay about it because i know that one day you will understand what i am saying. And the way you open your mind is to do your own research about things before you judge them. Read 'The Science Delusion' by Rupert Sheldrake, this is the new era of science.
    Acting rationally, as in using the scientific method to determine whether or not to accept a statement as truth. This guy, although through prior knowledge of pseudoscience and science, I already appreciated that it was fake. I don't have to repeat the experiments of others, the work has already been done. Telepathy, mediums, etc., have already been falsified.
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    (Original post by Farm_Ecology)
    I would certainly agree consciousness is possible without a brain, as other thinking processes may be possible. We know of at least one other (computers).

    It may be possible that other entities exist which can compute, and potentially be self-aware that use systems (either biologically or otherwise) that we have not considered.



    Your misunderstanding quantum physics, and extrapolating these misunderstandings to ridiculous levels. It's no surprise though, the documentaries mentioned use quantum physics to pass off nonsense as science.

    The problem with the consciousness argument, is that you are essentially arguing the necessity for a property we are not even sure exists. We know that conscious activity does not appear without brain activity. We also know, that conscious activity arises from brain activity. The problem is, that what we define as consciousness varies, and different definitions require different explanations.

    The problem is even more complex because the perception of consciousness we feel i somewhat difficult to understand (not to explain), because subjective experience isnt something that can be explained objectively. What we can understand is the various components of our self-awarness, our memories are very much physical, as is our ability to reflect. The feeling of self-awareness is the brain being aware of itself, using the tools available to it (memory, self-reflection and so on).

    What further complicates the issue is that we cannot be entirely sure we are conscious in the way we think we are. For the most part, our memories are very good at adapting. So even if we were not 'self-aware' five minutes ago, we would not be aware of it, because our memories would tell us we were. Similar situations arise when sleeping, with the possibility of the opposite.

    The problem is, when you reduce it to what we understand and what we don't. We are left with the same problem as with the soul: if consciousness does not arise from the brain, then it has no properties.

    Which begs the question, what exactly are we trying to explain then?

    This is why as far as questions of consciousness goes, we have maybes and noes, but not yeses. We can rule out certain possibilities (like consciousness arising from something metaphysical), but we can never be sure what causes the subjective experience we feel, if we even feel it at all.
    Because this type of information is fluid and constantly changing. There is no right answer and surely this is what is so fascinating about it because it opens many doors. The reason so many people are so sceptical is because of evidence, but what about the phantom DNA experiment and many other studies that we probably wont know about for a few more years because of the way the journal system works.
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    (Original post by pjm600)
    Acting rationally, as in using the scientific method to determine whether or not to accept a statement as truth. This guy, although through prior knowledge of pseudoscience and science, I already appreciated that it was fake. I don't have to repeat the experiments of others, the work has already been done. Telepathy, mediums, etc., have already been falsified.
    You obviously havent done any of your research. If they have been falsified then tell me who falsified them and what the process was. But you have to look at this is absolutely amazing http://www.whatthebleep.com/crystals/
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    There is no right answer
    But that's just not true; you might have missed my mention of Solomonoff induction, which is an infinite procedure to follow to determine *exactly* what can or cannot be inferred from any piece of evidence. It's not computable, but good approximations to it are (even if they would take stupendously long to run). There is a right answer; we just don't necessarily know it yet.
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    (Original post by Hypocrism)
    I don't quite see how it is relevant, however, neuroscience will explain the physical process of love. That would count as evidence.

    Science isn't concerned with meaning, but truth; you not liking that truth is frankly irrelevant to everything. I think that 'meaning' is possible while also knowing the truth about the world. Deluding yourself into comforting beliefs is not necessary nor helpful to you or anyone else.


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    Well being judgmental isnt going to help you or anyone else either.
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    You obviously havent done any of your research. If they have been falsified then tell me who falsified them and what the process was. But you have to look at this is absolutely amazing http://www.whatthebleep.com/crystals/
    Humans have a subconscious ability to 'see' patterns in things. That's why people see things in the clouds or faces in the smoke of 9/11. That site provides no way of replicating or verifying the results (what results?) and there's no way I'm paying $15 for a book on how prayer makes water have emotions.

    I can't currently find any papers on the subject, but I'll keep looking. In the meantime, can you provide any academic papers on the subject?

    Edit: If you find any, feel free to claim your one million dollar prize!
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    I believe consciousness is an illusion and that at root our cognitive responses are the result of a complex interplay of instinct or learned analogy. In the present moment, if you really think about it, you're not that "conscious": it's telling that consciousness is only inferred from recent memories. You might compare how the narrative of a dream is constructed with random electrical sensory impulses as a base.

    Our perception of consciousness is a bit like doing a statistical test on a computer. The calculation process is abstruse and not worth thinking about in fine-grained detail, it's only the results that are worth looking at, with the understanding that for an acceptably large majority of the time the calculation technique is acceptably meaningful, rather than wasting resources on diminishing returns trying to tailor the calculation process in too much detail.

    I believe that our brain develops these evaluative techniques as schemas which allow us to evaluate situations in a much more efficient way: by comparison with data that's gone before to achieve a satisfactory solution rather than from scratch each time to reach an ideal solution.

    The more efficient process of not worrying about the calculation and just looking at the result is known as cognition. The efficiency savings are made from the fiction of assuming, in the case of the statistical test, that the calculation method is generalisable, and in the case of cognition, that the schema is generalisable. This is why we suppose that our cognition is in some way down to rational, logical induction - at least when contrasted with what remain on the surface instinctive behaviours - leading to the illusory split between the instinctive reductionist computer model of the brain and the supposedly rational, separate cognitive system. In a way, psychology is still stuck in the Freudian world of id vs superego.
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    Because this type of information is fluid and constantly changing. There is no right answer and surely this is what is so fascinating about it because it opens many doors. The reason so many people are so sceptical is because of evidence, but what about the phantom DNA experiment and many other studies that we probably wont know about for a few more years because of the way the journal system works.
    What information are you referring to? Information about how the brain works and the origin of consciousness?

    As for the phantom DNA experiment, it has nothing to do with consciousness at all. And that's even assuming the experiment actually happened, and the results were genuine, which I highly doubt. I can't find anything to suggest that this experiment even happened, apart from a poorly written article, with drawing and some nonsense data with no explanation. I'm for keeping an open mind, but you can't expect people to just accept bold claims with no explanation or follow research simply because they threw the words 'energy' and 'quantum' all over the place.

    As for the water crystal experiments you posted, follow up experiments were done, and they yielded nothing.
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    our 5 senses is not reality.
    Humans have far more than five senses.


    Quantum physics has shown that space and time are illusions of perception.
    How? Reported where? By whose theory or experiment?

    Therefore, our bodies cannot be a reality if they occupy this space.
    Why not?

    But when you understand that there is a common spiritual bond (consciousness) between the universe, and that we are all part of the one divine intelligence, no phenomena is unexplainable
    Where is your evidence for this?
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    (Original post by Farm_Ecology)
    What information are you referring to? Information about how the brain works and the origin of consciousness?

    As for the phantom DNA experiment, it has nothing to do with consciousness at all. And that's even assuming the experiment actually happened, and the results were genuine, which I highly doubt. I can't find anything to suggest that this experiment even happened, apart from a poorly written article, with drawing and some nonsense data with no explanation. I'm for keeping an open mind, but you can't expect people to just accept bold claims with no explanation or follow research simply because they threw the words 'energy' and 'quantum' all over the place.

    As for the water crystal experiments you posted, follow up experiments were done, and they yielded nothing.
    Thats okay i didnt have it in mind to get everyone to accept it, i just commented my opinion onto this thread and the response interested me. And it is true people find it difficult to give up their belief systems because that is what makes them up as a person. Yet, their pineal gland must be rather calcified! Life for me is bliss, thats enough proof to myself and i only want to prove that to myself. i can only go so far to help others open their eyes but at the end of the day, not even God can help those who will not help themselves
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Humans have far more than five senses.




    How? Reported where? By whose theory or experiment?



    Why not?



    Where is your evidence for this?
    And even if i told you those answers who am i to suggest to you that the information is gospel. Why are you asking me? Im just an 18 year old student who is discovering more and more about this Earth everyday and is only starting to figure this all out. Do you own research, find your own answers and then you wont be so judging towards the information you do find. If you do find anything interesting let me know, which im sure you will
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    Thats okay i didnt have it in mind to get everyone to accept it, i just commented my opinion onto this thread and the response interested me. And it is true people find it difficult to give up their belief systems because that is what makes them up as a person. Yet, their pineal gland must be rather calcified! Life for me is bliss, thats enough proof to myself and i only want to prove that to myself. i can only go so far to help others open their eyes but at the end of the day, not even God can help those who will not help themselves
    I can't tell if you're being condescending or sarcastic.

    The truth is, there is plenty of wonder in the Universe, and plenty of mysteries still to be uncovered. But the Quantum-pseudoscience movement, which puts forwards things like 18 strand-DNA-matrix healing and other such nonsense provide an easy way to access that self-absorbed sense of importance we get from having hidden knowledge.

    As someone who used to be into conspiracies and pseudoscience, it was very easy to pass off criticism as proof that what these people said was true. People doubting that our DNA is magic and 12 stranded? Just proof that they were brainwashed, while *I* was an empowered genius, unlike those mortal sheeple. My own doubts about it all? Just proof that the water was contaminated, better stop drinking water from the taps, and pay extra high prices for 'specialty goods' made from magic.

    It was only when I questioned what I was told that my perspective changed. Instead of blindly rejecting the mainstream, and blindly accepting the (often contradictory) alternative, I looked at the claims people were making. The use of scientific words is no better than in your average shampoo commercial, they use DNA to draw people in, but claim they can make it 12/18 stranded (because more numbers means more power!) to sucker people in further. They'll throw the word quantum physics as the buzz word that means 'strange', to make it sound like their claim is legitimate, then introduce concepts like past lives and channeling (like what the bleep do we know did) in a slow process to make it sound like all of their claims are backed up. The point is, if they are going to say that science is lying to you, why bother assuming some of it is true, but not others.

    The fact is, that mainstream science is accepted for a reason, because they can support their claims. Most pseudoscience claims cannot be backed up, and only gain support because of their extraordinary nature, and the way they appeal to peoples sense of self-worth. People want to have magical powers, people want to be immortal, people want to think that this world is caring. And more importantly, people want everything to be about them.

    Pseudoscience and conspiracy theory is so popular because it makes people feel special. And I can vouch for that.
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    Why are you asking me?
    To find out whether you had information I was unaware of or whether you were just spouting drivel and hoping nobody noticed. I know the answer now.
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    (Original post by Farm_Ecology)
    I can't tell if you're being condescending or sarcastic.

    The truth is, there is plenty of wonder in the Universe, and plenty of mysteries still to be uncovered. But the Quantum-pseudoscience movement, which puts forwards things like 18 strand-DNA-matrix healing and other such nonsense provide an easy way to access that self-absorbed sense of importance we get from having hidden knowledge.

    As someone who used to be into conspiracies and pseudoscience, it was very easy to pass off criticism as proof that what these people said was true. People doubting that our DNA is magic and 12 stranded? Just proof that they were brainwashed, while *I* was an empowered genius, unlike those mortal sheeple. My own doubts about it all? Just proof that the water was contaminated, better stop drinking water from the taps, and pay extra high prices for 'specialty goods' made from magic.

    It was only when I questioned what I was told that my perspective changed. Instead of blindly rejecting the mainstream, and blindly accepting the (often contradictory) alternative, I looked at the claims people were making. The use of scientific words is no better than in your average shampoo commercial, they use DNA to draw people in, but claim they can make it 12/18 stranded (because more numbers means more power!) to sucker people in further. They'll throw the word quantum physics as the buzz word that means 'strange', to make it sound like their claim is legitimate, then introduce concepts like past lives and channeling (like what the bleep do we know did) in a slow process to make it sound like all of their claims are backed up. The point is, if they are going to say that science is lying to you, why bother assuming some of it is true, but not others.

    The fact is, that mainstream science is accepted for a reason, because they can support their claims. Most pseudoscience claims cannot be backed up, and only gain support because of their extraordinary nature, and the way they appeal to peoples sense of self-worth. People want to have magical powers, people want to be immortal, people want to think that this world is caring. And more importantly, people want everything to be about them.

    Pseudoscience and conspiracy theory is so popular because it makes people feel special. And I can vouch for that.
    No i am being serious, i think being sarcastic would just be very immature. And yes of course the alternative makes people feel special but what if some of the alternative is actually true. I am not one to believe every conspiracy, believe me, but some of them are not actually conspiracy but blindingly obvious. Lets not get into that debate now! I agree much of mainstream science is of course fact and true (im doing all sciences for A level!). But the way science is at the moment, it just doesnt give us any answers about the meaning of life and this is where the philosophy comes in, its so exciting! What interests me is your change in belief system... What caused you to become dogmatic again?
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    To find out whether you had information I was unaware of or whether you were just spouting drivel and hoping nobody noticed. I know the answer now.
    So im guessing youre not willing to falsify that information yourself then?
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    Life for me is bliss
    Really?! I'm extremely impressed - is life actually bliss or is that a cached thought? Your life may be unusually good for a human at the present (I know mine is - I live in an unusually rich country with unusually good medicine, etc. - Britain is an unusually nice place on Earth) but is it actually bliss? It seems to me that there are many many things that could be better (the existence of pain, for instance - there should be a better way of telling us about danger without causing us pain - damned unthinking evolution hitting on a crude effective way!)
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    So im guessing youre not willing to falsify that information yourself then?
    He performed an experiment and interpreted the conclusion. You can't use positive evidence to falsify a conclusion - that would just be silly. (More precisely, it contradicts Bayes's Law.)
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    (Original post by Smaug123)
    Really?! I'm extremely impressed - is life actually bliss or is that a cached thought? Your life may be unusually good for a human at the present (I know mine is - I live in an unusually rich country with unusually good medicine, etc. - Britain is an unusually nice place on Earth) but is it actually bliss? It seems to me that there are many many things that could be better (the existence of pain, for instance - there should be a better way of telling us about danger without causing us pain - damned unthinking evolution hitting on a crude effective way!)
    Yea life is what you make of it really. The attitude is gratitude, quite literally. And i agree we are so lucky to have been born here and i dont think that pain is necessarily a bad thing.. it helps us learn and mature. You wouldnt even know half the crap ive been through but then this applies to most people so its not exactly an excuse not to have a wonderful life. Now, i try and see my mistakes all as a learning curve, pain included in that. When people question my beliefs it makes me grateful because it causes me to think deeply and realise more about them. I have got out of the habit of denial and i see other peoples point of view from their perspective. Even when people are extremely rude to me i try to be nice back because i know they are as they say 'fighting their own battles'. Ive a lot to learn yet but thats what makes it so exciting! You might not like this but we actually need pain, in order to understand what its really like not to feel it...
 
 
 
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